Class 378's to be shortened to 4 cars and used on GOBLIN?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by MatthewRead, 26 Dec 2018.

  1. SteveOfTheStow

    SteveOfTheStow Member

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    There aren't, but the alternative is closing the GOBLIN; politically damning. So the NLL or ELL (don't know offhand how many panto-fitted trains that has) will have to suffer.
     
  2. jeromeroberts

    jeromeroberts Member

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  3. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    We assume there is one spare because one was supposed to be away at the refurbish/refresh programme that has now been pushed back. If they end up needing to transfer 2 or 3 trains to the GOBLIN then yes, there will likely be services cut elsewhere. There are no good places to cut so one can only speculate what diagrams will be cancelled at this point (although obviously the GOBLIN needs 378s with pantographs).

    This is just my speculation, but perhaps they'll be able to rearrange maintenance schedules so the weekday peak service is affected less at the cost of more cancellations during the weekends (much as they've been doing with the 172s for the last couple of months). Not sure how practical that is with the 378s.
     
  4. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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  5. Brissle Girl

    Brissle Girl Member

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    Interesting to note that even half hourly will result in an increase in overall capacity, as a 4 car 378 only has two cabs instead of 4 on 2 x 172, also the walk through design will also give a real increase in space, and the longitudinal configuration will also increase overall capacity (without getting into that debate again, it does mean more people can cram on board). So other than the inconvenience of the frequency reduction, which will undoubtedly be a nuisance, the service should still be able to carry more people than it does today. Also it's good to see that TfL has negotiated free travel with Bombardier, as part of what will no doubt be a significant financial settlement between the parties.
     
  6. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    I wonder if it would make better sense to drop a couple of Crystal Palace trains as at least there are the Southern London Bridge-Victoria circulars that call there

    Quite a few 378/2's work on the ELLE so cutting these back (aka Crystal Palace terminators) to just 378/1 workings

    Anyway, this is going OT, any ideas what are the next 378's to be shortened?
     
    Last edited: 25 Jan 2019
  7. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    The Crystal Palace services run up through Honor Oak Park and Brockley on their way to the core, which both already have problems in the peaks with people not being able to board crush loaded trains. It's often the case that West Croydons are already heaving by Forest Hill, and the Crystal Palace services are the only chance folks at these stations have of getting to work. It's thought LO are likely going to raise the Crystal Palace frequency to 6tph when the Core goes to 20tph for this reason (relevant London Reconnections article).

    New Cross trains are busy too, but don't have as much of a peak problem.

    Plus: related point, neither Crystal Palace nor New Cross routes require dual voltage stock. Although some of the ELL trains have pantographs just because they deliberately have surplus pantographs in the 378 fleet, I'm not sure how the numbers work out.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jan 2019
  8. theking

    theking Member

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    What about the DC?

    Is there anyway of cutting them into Euston and having them run the non lu bit.

    2 birds one stone as they're duel voltage units and run out of nll depots anyway and when the 710's finally arrive they can run on the dc as 4 car until there's enough commissioned 710's that they can be released to relengthen
     
  9. abn444

    abn444 Member

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    Looking at the timetable it now seems that all the LO WLL trains continue through to Stratford, so wouldn't it be a good idea to cut half of them back to Willesden Junction like they used to?
     
  10. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    I reckon it will just be the fleet being used harder. How many Class 378 are diagrammed for service and how many Class 378s are there in the fleet?
     
  11. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    51 from 57 normally.
     
  12. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    So I would suggest that 54 from 57 are being used. Three on GOB services.
     
  13. Railperf

    Railperf Established Member

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    172 006 sitting in Rugby bay platform less seat covers!!
     
  14. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Will TfL end up paying any penalties to DfT if they cancel half their services and drop from 4tph to 2tph? Or is the way LO operating totally hands off from that point of view?
     
  15. plcd1

    plcd1 Member

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    TfL are the contracting authority for London Overground and TfL Rail / Crossrail services. DfT devolved the responsibility to TfL. The DfT have no day to day involvement and no money flows to them directly from these contracted operations. Indirectly money from the TfL contracted TOCs reaches the DfT controlled Network Rail for track access / power consumption etc. TfL take the revenue risk on this contracts and pay the operators a fee for running the services. All the revenue (direct via LO / TfL Rail ticket offices or via apportionment) goes to TfL. The operators have no direct incentive to bump up the farebox but they do have a "minimise fraud / ticketless travel" incentive so they can earn extra money from keeping such revenue losses below a pre-agreed target.

    TfL are responsible for adjusting Arriva Rail London's fee in respect of their performance (where they are liable for delays etc). In respect of the GOBLIN and the fleet shortage I believe TfL are not abating ARL for cancellations / reduced weekend services. It is all pretty much out of ARL's control given TfL are effectively calling the shots in respect of the 172 sub lease / having ordered the 710s. ARL are "piggy in the middle" of all of this mess and certainly didn't sign a contract on the basis of new trains being effectively 12-15 months late or having the 172s being removed from service without replacement or having to cobble together 4 car units from elsewhere in the 378 fleet. If I was Arriva I'd certainly be arguing that I was "held harmless" for failures completely out of my control and from "imposed" reduced timetables. I expect precisely that type of conversation has been held more than once with TfL.
     
  16. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure whether TfL were some sort of 'subauthority' or a full authority for these services, given the need for them to follow DfT's lead on things like integrated timetabling and safety standards. I'd guess DfT still have the final say on certain things like that?
     
  17. Railperf

    Railperf Established Member

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    Could a shortened 345 work on the Goblin? There are loads spare without a job at the moment!!
     
  18. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    No, once again DOO cameras are the issue - 345s have a system like the LU S stock where platform mounted cameras transmit the images to the train, so you'd need to install those to make it work. And that's before you even think about trying to make the software work on the shortened ones!
     
  19. Julia

    Julia Member

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    Or, does the 1972mk2 stock have grandfather rights for a return to Watford Junction?
     
  20. 31160

    31160 Member

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    So when will the 378's start working public services then? Is there a guess available
     
  21. CarltonA

    CarltonA Member

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    The 4th rail has been decommissioned for some time and besides the Bakerloo fleet is not big enough to cover the increased distance.
     
  22. Railperf

    Railperf Established Member

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    Are there any remaining tripcock train stops north of Harrow & Wealdstone? And are the 378s equipped with tripcocks across the fleet?
     
  23. Railperf

    Railperf Established Member

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    I'm sure lots of the 4th rail remains within the running rails still despite not sitting raised up on insulators..
     
  24. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    A 172 went this weekend, so if it's not ready tomorrow there will be cancellations.
     
  25. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Maybe TfL should call the National Rail Museum and see if The Flying Scotsman and a couple of Mark I's are available for a few months.
     
  26. TheSel

    TheSel Member

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    From 'London's Transport Bus News' dated 26/1/19:


    Modified electric trains are to be used temporarily on London Overground’s Gospel Oak to Barking line, as a contingency put in place, due to the new 'Class 710' electric trains are not yet ready for passenger service

    Passengers on London Overground's Gospel Oak to Barking line will see a mixed fleet of trains operating from Monday 28 January, as an interim measure until the delayed new electric 'Class 710' trains are delivered by the manufacturer, Bombardier Transportation, are ready for passenger service.

    The eagerly anticipated new electric four-car walk-through trains were due to be in service in 2018, however, Bombardier are still carrying out software development and mileage testing before the trains can be released for driver training and brought into use on the network.

    To ensure services can continue running on the line, three existing electric 'Class 378' trains are being modified and will be used as a temporary solution until the new trains, expected almost a year ago, are ready. One will join the line next week, followed by two more between now and March, when the last of the existing diesel 'Class 172' trains are released for use elsewhere in the country. The modified electric trains will operate alongside the current diesel trains to ensure the line can remain open for passengers. This will mean some trains throughout the day will be two-cars (diesel) and some will be four-car (electric) over the coming weeks.

    I can't vouch for it, but this publication is usually accurate.
     
  27. OvergroundMatt

    OvergroundMatt Member

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    As mentioned further up in the thread, TfL announced this in a presss release on Friday. The modified 378s start Monday.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ondon-overground-s-gospel-oak-to-barking-line

     
  28. TheSel

    TheSel Member

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    Ah, Sorry - I'd missed that. Thanks.
     
  29. zn1

    zn1 Member

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    quicker and easier to dump a few surplus 313 or ,315s on the job from HE or IL ...the TFL boys should be savvy with em....rather than mess around breaking and shortening units until the specified "new kit" arrives...the beauty of 313 also, it will break in the new string, load bank test it etc...
     
  30. 700007

    700007 Established Member

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    Anyone know which 172 got taken off lease yesterday?
     

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