Class 379s or 350s for Corby?

[pompeyfan]

The only issues with Desiros compared to electrostars is the noticeably slower door cycle of the units. The whole open and close process takes an age compared to a 377, even a 4 car 150 has less dwell time for similar passenger loadings from my own observations.

 

[D365]

350's are a very good train. You Midland types cant have them. They are ours on LNWR.

The 350/2 fleet is slated for replacement with the Aventras.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Bedford Cauldwell is the most touted option.

Indeed - although this article suggests it will continue to be used by GTR for its Cl700 fleet.

There will definitely be something at Kettering, but my recollection is that it will be stabling facilities, not a depot.

The 350/2 fleet is slated for replacement with the Aventras.

...which could create capacity in Northampton. Yes, they'd need to be dragged from Bedford but that's less significant if it's only for heavier maintenance, and could be lower overall cost than building a new depot if there is no spare capacity.

I don't think we should assume that the 350 & 379 are the only game in town.

New-build EMU? - depending on how the train quality element is scored. I've a recollection that some franchise document specified "inter-city quality" stock. Of course that's a highly flexible term in the hands of politicians but the door positions on 350s and 379s are not "inter-city". And it's certainly something that bidders should be talking up as a way of beating the ROSCos over the head on leasing costs.

Another possibility is same bi-mode that is used for the rest of the LDHS services on the MML - remember the MML service will be 6tph from 4 platforms at St Pancras. A homogenous fleet would make operations at STP more flexible and resilient, surely? Then they could all be maintained in Derby

 

[DarloRich]

The 350/2 fleet is slated for replacement with the Aventras.

The 350/2 are the least comfortable of the fleet. Still good trains though. Is the adventra the cross rail unit type? I get confused by all these names.

 

[Domh245]

The 350/2 are the least comfortable of the fleet. Still good trains though. Is the adventra the cross rail unit type? I get confused by all these names.

AVENTRA is the family name, and crossrail units are part of that family. The west midlands units won't bear much in common though, in much the same way that the class 376 (southeastern metro services) has little in common with the class 375 (southeastern long distance services) from a passenger point of view

 

[pt_mad]

If max speed is currently 100mph under the wires south of Bedford, presumably there will be 125mph electric speeds from Bedford to Keterring and some fast sections Kettering to Corby. And if Pancras to Before is due for electric upgrade to 110mph and it's all been agreed, then 110mph stock is clearly going to be advantageous.

I believe there were issues at LM with clearing double sets of 350/1s for 110mph running with two pantographs. Unsure whether they are cleared to run at 110mph with three but I very much doubt it as no 12 car is booked to run on the fast lines via Weedon to my knowledge. So if 12 cars to Corby is essential then clearances may need to be made in order to allow a triple set 350 running at 110mph. Otherwise I am guessing it's be max 100mph with a triple set and max 110mph north of Kettering with a double set from the day of introduction.


As for interior refits. Yes the 350/2s probably would need a refit whereas Electrostars may not.

But thinking about it, with the 3+2 seating. You've already got a row on one side of the aisle with pairs of seats (the 2 element of the 3+2). So potentially couldn't they leave that in and rip out the rows of 3 seats and replace with with new pairs (2 seats) to make it 2+2? Granted the existing 2s wouldn't have armrests. Unless they can be retro fitted.

Or just remove the most inner seats in the rows of 3 (in the 3+2 arrangement), by cutting them out and making the join good if necessary and you have your 2+2 .And retro fit armrests if absolutely necessary.

Can't see making good of the existing seats to 2+2 being all that costly compared to new kit.

 

[Mordac]

350's are a very good train. You Midland types cant have them. They are ours on LNWR.

The 350/2s are going already anyway, but happily, the others are staying and we'll get the 350/4s from TPE as well. Sadly, I don't imagine the latter will keep their nice interiors, though.

 

[47802]

It is possible that they might use existing 100/110mph units in the short to medium term, with a new build 125mph units at a later date.

 

[mallard]

It's highly likely that the MML bi-modes will arrive long before the Thameslink wires are upgraded to allow suitable "express" speeds anyway. As far as I've seen there has been no progress on securing funding for the upgrade.

That means that the MML will be reduced to a 100mph railway south of Bedford for the forseeable future and there's little point in buying new 125mph EMUs for Corby just to have them potter around at 100 for the vast majority of their operations. Since there are going to be so many "spare" EMUs in the near future, it'll (hopefully; if the government allows such free-market competition in the rail industry) be an "operator's market" for anyone who wants to use them, making use of 350s, 360s, 379s or even 332s a cheaper option than new-builds.

 

[DarloRich]

it'll (hopefully; if the government allows such free-market competition in the rail industry) be an "operator's market" for anyone who wants to use them, making use of 350s, 360s, 379s or even 332s a cheaper option than new-builds.

Indeed - they will all need a decent internal refurb to improve the passenger environment as several of those classes will be a a bit tired after hard use.

 

[pt_mad]

It's highly likely that the MML bi-modes will arrive long before the Thameslink wires are upgraded to allow suitable "express" speeds anyway. As far as I've seen there has been no progress on securing funding for the upgrade.

That means that the MML will be reduced to a 100mph railway south of Bedford for the forseeable future and there's little point in buying new 125mph EMUs for Corby just to have them potter around at 100 for the vast majority of their operations. Since there are going to be so many "spare" EMUs in the near future, it'll (hopefully; if the government allows such free-market competition in the rail industry) be an "operator's market" for anyone who wants to use them, making use of 350s, 360s, 379s or even 332s a cheaper option than new-builds.

So in theory even new MML bi modes are going to have to go at max 100mph going north until they reach Bedford.

However the rapid acceleration and max 125mph north of Bedford hopefully will make up the journey time.

 

[InTheEastMids]

So in theory even new MML bi modes are going to have to go at max 100mph going north until they reach Bedford.

However the rapid acceleration and max 125mph north of Bedford hopefully will make up the journey time.

In the latest NR Enhancement Delivery Update, there is a project called Midland Main Line Bimode Enabling. Within the scope of this work there is the following:

• Make appropriate adjustment of Fast Line OLE between London St Pancras to Bedford South Junction

This suggests that initially, the wires South of Bedford will be capable of whatever they are now (Didn't 319s run in 12-car formation at 100?) upon completion of the Corby scheme. Then this separate project in CP6 will allow bimodes to run at 125 on electric power when they rock up in 2023.

 

[Roast Veg]

However between now and 2023 we will have a set of EMT operated Corby EMUs coming on stream that will be taking up fast line paths as far as Bedford at 100mph, at greater frequency than the current Corby service. Either they will have to run on the slows for a certain distance and interleave with Thameslink or the OLE upgrade will have to come in advance of the bi-modes. Even if one or other of these is done, it could very well leave trains via Leicester significantly slower than they are today.

 

[pt_mad]

However between now and 2023 we will have a set of EMT operated Corby EMUs coming on stream that will be taking up fast line paths as far as Bedford at 100mph, at greater frequency than the current Corby service. Either they will have to run on the slows for a certain distance and interleave with Thameslink or the OLE upgrade will have to come in advance of the bi-modes. Even if one or other of these is done, it could very well leave trains via Leicester significantly slower than they are today.

Could this mean they will have to look at removing stops in express services so that journey times are kept at what they are now? I.e. non stop to Leicester so as it can be done at the same time as now with 100mph running until Bedford.

 

[Agent_Squash]

(Didn't 319s run in 12-car formation at 100?)

319s were restricted to 75mph in 12 car formation, hence the practical maximum of 8 cars.

 

[hooverboy]

350's are a very good train. You Midland types cant have them. They are ours on LNWR.



what are you on about? Stewartby is earmarked for a massive housing development. You may as well make the case of using Blethcley depot! BTW What MK direct loop? What "spaghetti" sidings?

stewartby has been earmarked supposedly by hanson(the owners) for massive housing development since 2009
as of jan 2018 there have been no planning applications submitted.
It is the perfect time to put in compulsary purchase orders...they have had their time sitting on it rotting away ,now it's time to tell them WE ARE GOING TO PUT IT TO USE.no if's,no but's.

still looks (very) derelict- feckin eyesore!!!!

besides,there will be a huge clear- up cost for domestic housing(stuff like asbestos linings etc etc). for an industrial application..ie TMD+sidings it's mostly just a case of levelling,lining and ballasting and a pre-fab shed knocked up,with reduced chance of lawsuits

as for spaghetti sidings-I'm referring to the ones between bedford st johns +bedford midland(which marston vale disects at 5mph), and likewise between fenny and bletchley end where the train turns lleft to go to bletchley.On the right hand side there are sidings and a small shed,mostly unused.That could be converted to get trains to MKC

 

[D365]

What would Stewartby do that Cauldwell can't?

 

[hooverboy]

What would Stewartby do that Cauldwell can't?

cauldwell won't make any sense when east-west is running at speed.
and tbh cauldwell does not have capacity now with only 700's,let alone E/W and EMT traction.

that entire section round by st.johns will be a massive bottleneck because it is so damn slow.the whole lot will need to be redesigned.would be easier running another overbridge by the mainline and running through by the existing little maintanance depot and scrapyard.
either that or join the slows at elstow from marston vale

 

[43096]

319s were restricted to 75mph in 12 car formation, hence the practical maximum of 8 cars.

Classes 377 and 387 were permitted 100mph in 12-car formations, were they not, though?

 

[edwin_m]

Could this mean they will have to look at removing stops in express services so that journey times are kept at what they are now? I.e. non stop to Leicester so as it can be done at the same time as now with 100mph running until Bedford.

I think most stops south of Kettering will be taken out of the trains going to Leicester and beyond as the Corby trains will make these stops instead. The concern is probably more with the fast trains that mostly don't make those stops anyway so are at risk of being slower. MML is already slower than WCML and ECML for similar distances.

 

[DarloRich]

stewartby has been earmarked supposedly by hanson(the owners) for massive housing development since 2009
as of jan 2018 there have been no planning applications submitted.
It is the perfect time to put in compulsary purchase orders...they have had their time sitting on it rotting away ,now it's time to tell them WE ARE GOING TO PUT IT TO USE.no if's,no but's.

still looks (very) derelict- feckin eyesore!!!!

But hang on - The "feckin eyesore" is a a listed building. That's why it is still there! https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1392357

TWO KILNS AND FOUR CHIMNEYS AT THE STEWARTBY BRICKWORKS

Although Hanson have asked for permission to knock them down Historic England are against it

besides,there will be a huge clear- up cost for domestic housing(stuff like asbestos linings etc etc). for an industrial application..ie TMD+sidings it's mostly just a case of levelling,lining and ballasting and a pre-fab shed knocked up,with reduced chance of lawsuits

Sadly not - the clear up will be exactly the same.

The rest of your ideas wouldn't stand up to any scrutiny in relation to value for money- it just wouldn't get authorized.

as for spaghetti sidings-I'm referring to the ones between bedford st johns +bedford midland(which marston vale disects at 5mph), and likewise between fenny and bletchley end where the train turns lleft to go to bletchley.On the right hand side there are sidings and a small shed,mostly unused.That could be converted to get trains to MKC

That's Blethcley depot - one look at a map would explain why your idea to put a line through there isnt really sensible or feasible.

BTW - not one of those "spaghetti" sidings at the Blethcley end impacts on railway services in any way and is actually very useful as a stabling point for OTM. The deopt is/has been used recently as a commissioning base for the GWR electrostars and is in line to be used in a similar fashion in the future.

You might have more chance ( albeit slim bordering on anorexic) suggesting the old sidings at Forders for an EMU depot. However the most likely use for those sidings would be for construction materials for E-W and even that isnt very likely!

 

[dp21]

It may be of interest to people that the 379s are currently having work done on them to prepare them for uprating to 100mp.

That includes updating the traction motor fans (already done I believe) and replacing the gearbox bearings with SKF to make them the same as the 387s.

I don't believe the uprating will be done whilst the units are at GA but they will be ready for it by the time they depart is what I'm being told.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Classes 377 and 387 were permitted 100mph in 12-car formations, were they not, though?

Yes, as were 365's on the ECML, and 350's on the WCML.

Dynamic performance of the 3rd pantograph becomes an issue at high speeds, by the time 2 pans have passed the wire is bouncing around all over the place.

I'm not as in the loop as I was, having changed employers, but anything over 100mph was not supposed to be permitted for multiple pans unless widely spaced. I'm guessing that changed for project 110 on WCML, but certainly the first 110mph Desiro's were restricted to 4-car formations. IEP's were originally supposed to run in multiple with only the furthest pantographs apart in operation (i.e. Cars 1 and 10), with restrictions for degraded mode running (IIRC it was 100mph with car 1 and 6, and 75mph with 5 and 6) but this may have all changed later!

Some of the 319s were still fitted with the AMBR pantograph which may have been the reason for 8-car only being allowed, however there were also other issues with respect to DOO and lack of cameras / mirrors (and in some cases, platforms!) that would restrict it too.

The "South of Bedford" works would mainly be wire grading to allow 100mph + operation, there's nothing inherently wrong with the system design to stop it being used for 125mph, provided that the dynamic performance issues are resolved if Corby services really do need to be 12-car.

 

[D365]

It may be of interest to people that the 379s are currently having work done on them to prepare them for uprating to 100mp.

I do hope you meant to write 110mph

 

[pt_mad]

I think most stops south of Kettering will be taken out of the trains going to Leicester and beyond as the Corby trains will make these stops instead. The concern is probably more with the fast trains that mostly don't make those stops anyway so are at risk of being slower. MML is already slower than WCML and ECML for similar distances.

Are there any sections south of Bedford that are currently cleared for 125mph on the fast lines? If not then it's only going to be 100mph Vs 110mph.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any sections south of Bedford that are currently cleared for 125mph on the fast lines? If not then it's only going to be 100mph Vs 110mph.

Yes there are some HST 125. But there are also some HST 120 and HST 115, it changes every few miles or more. The online sectional appendix pdf will explain exactly where: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...s/london north eastern sectional appendix.pdf

 

[DaveN]

So as I understand it, it will be down to the bidders of the new franchise to negotiate with the ROSCOs the rolling stock for the new Corby services including the details in their bids. The franchise is due to be awarded in "Spring 2019" - so probably May. They'll then need to have some of the actual stock before May 2020 when the Network rail infrastructure will be complete and most of it shortly after that for testing, driver training etc, so that they can be ready for the new services to start in Dec 2020. So brand new stock seems unlikely to say the least!

[Presumably the best solution to the linespeed problem, south of Bedford would be to have bi-modes running on diesel south of Bedford ]

 

[dp21]

I do hope you meant to write 110mph

Sorry yes, I clearly wasn't paying attention to what I was writing!

 

[hooverboy]

But hang on - The "feckin eyesore" is a a listed building. That's why it is still there! https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1392357

Although Hanson have asked for permission to knock them down Historic England are against it

..and there is also a difference under compulsary purchase laws vis a vis private and public companies doing the purchasing.
if it's for the likes of a housing development or supermarket:
" the purchaser must state a case for significant economic benefit to the local community if a request for demolition/repair is instigated,or it can be proven the existing structure is in such state of repair it is likely to cause harm if not removed"

no doubt hanson have done this at some stage(many years ago but not acted upon...I believe there is a 2 year time limit),and no doubt the council have put in a repair order..which means they need to comply with putting it right if they want to keep it as a heritage site.

a public/government body does not have to go through these sort of legal chicanes.DfT can quite easily say,"This line is being built HERE,and sod the newt sanctuary"

 

[westcoaster]

319s were restricted to 75mph in 12 car formation, hence the practical maximum of 8 cars.

Nearly right, if a 12 car 319 had 3 breknell Willis high speed pans it was permitted to go 100mph. If it had 1 or more stones faively pans it was then limited to 75mph.