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Class 387 to GN

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by crazystripe, 29 Jul 2016.

  1. notverydeep

    notverydeep Member

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    There was an interesting display of the superior performance of the class 387s this morning. I noted 3 x 387 on 1P49 0733 Peterborough to London Kings Cross arrive at Finsbury Park a whole 4 minutes early into the up fast platform as my train left from platform 2.

    According to Real Time Train this was from an on time start at Stevenage. The train was then held a whole 5 minutes to the correct departure time. I bet that annoyed the passengers, especially if they were standing! Wouldn't they be great trains if only they could match the seating configuration of a 365...?
     
  2. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Yes stick a 365 style seating layout, get rid of the ironing boards, and move the first class to the 365 position, and they'd be good as gold.

    Having said that, I've been doing some measuring with GPS, and I can't see much performance difference between 365 and 387. Your train might just have had a clear run - 365s can just as easily run early if the signals are favourable, it only takes something else to be cancelled or otherwise not in the way.
     
  3. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    I shall reserve judgment on the Class 387 seats for now, but for one thing I'll be glad to see the back of the bulky, cumbersome and awkward Class 317/321 seats.
     
  4. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    It is also a total embarasment - but shows the contempt GTR show to thier passengers! This should have got fixed by now - surely it is against the disable discrimination act? How is a blind person supposed to know if they are in the correct portion of the train.

    Does the 1822 also do this? I know the 1722 does. I assume that it on all splitting trains. But this should have got reprogrammed / fixed by now or turned off as this is actually as bad as having no information at all.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    They are getting hard to avoid now :(

    Be interesting what WGC shorts will convert.

    for completeness the 1658 already is and should stay so as it forms half of the 1822, 1728 is a 365, 1758 is 2x 317s (so it may convert), I think most of the ones after this are 313s.
     
  5. notverydeep

    notverydeep Member

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    They've fixed it... I'm aboard 387119 on 2C32 1822 King's Cross to Cambridge and the coaches Grand Central to East Coast oddity has been fixed and the announcement has the correct numbers. I presume the update will have been rolled out across the fleet.
     
  6. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    The 1722 was in full waffle yesterday so but I guess the end is in sight.
     
  7. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    Impressive, but looks like it was aided to the tune of at least 1 minute by calling in the Up Fast platform, not the Up Slow (to avoid conflict with a late running stopper from Welwyn), thus getting a faster run into the station by avoidimg the slow speed crossover and approach control (which will be factored imto the planned runnimg time).

    Plus there's a bit of performance and engineering allowance on the run in too.
     
  8. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    A smiley face on the front would be good too :D

    I've been on three 387s recently. Ironing board seats are absolutely awful and ride quality not good.

    About the only positive they have over the 365s is they have carpet although the 365s had theirs removed in favour of vinyl as part of the downgrade to get us ready for the 700s.
     
  9. notverydeep

    notverydeep Member

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    The commuters of Hertfordshire are revolting. Well, they are on 2C93 (the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross) 387108 + 387129 - on departure from Welwyn Garden City at 08:25, all the seats in the rear unit's first class section and thus the last coach of the train, were taken.

    I would hazard a guess not by first class ticket holders. IMO, when you see people prepared to break the rules to this degree, you begin to suspect that they think the operator is taking the p**s...

    A noticeable up tick in overheard complaints about the lack of seats, now that most are back to work.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jan 2017
  10. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    It was the same yesterday, with the same things that we have discussed on this thread many times.

    On the platform people were saying asking each other where 1st class was going to be, "nobody knows". When 1st class turned up at the rear some tried to move forward but saw the next coach was full and moved back. The general view was **** em - we will sit down. Heard many people state "this isn't really first class anyway" and "why can't it be in the same place"

    I guess we should all move foward, increase the dwell time and wreck the PMM even further.

    Saying that I have noticed the time keeping drastically improve since the 387s have appeared, but the leaves have gone as well...

    Even if people don't sit down, I wouldn't want to be an RPI who tries to penalty fare people standing in first. They will get a lot of "where else am I supposed to stand" and "well if we knew where first class was going to be we would have stood somewhere else". I have a feeling they won't bother.
     
  11. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    How could they issue penalty fares anyway when some muppet is putting the 1st class sticker on the wrong door?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And there are still no clear signs inside the vestibule. Signs that would be recognised by people throughout the world (in other words, not a poster with text that some people might not fully understand).

    Apologies for calling someone a muppet, as that's a bit rude, but I couldn't really find a more polite way to say it!
     
  12. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    You will probably find this sticker is from the thameslink days where they thought it was sensible to have the first call directly behind the drivers cabs (something we still want now they are with Great Northern)

    However someone was paid to.
    1. Remove the Thameslink branding.
    2. Brand the train Great Northern.
    3. Paint a yellow stripe.

    So why they could add into this contract, remove existing 1st labels as part of the above show the shocking incompetance and lack of customer focus of GTR management.

    I remember when they took over first capital connect, they removed all evidence of "first" including stickers for first class on the 365s. :)

    But as it stands I can see how someone will think that entire coach is first class (until they board)
     
    Last edited: 12 Jan 2017
  13. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I did laugh when seeing the doors to first class with a blue band saying 'class' on the right hand door and the 'first' on the left having been removed.

    Oh, and when FCC did the same having used black pen to cross out all references to Thameslink. So we ended up with route maps saying 'City' and 'King's Cross'...

    Edit: I think to add to an earlier comment, I am on the 1235 KGX to PBO and despite a bit of wheelspin leaving stations, I can say that we've been early at every station so far (just left Potters Bar) and have ended up waiting. So if there's one good thing, it should be timekeeping.

    The 365s would be slipping all over the place and I am sure that we'd have been a minute or two down by now.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jan 2017
  14. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    I imagine that the WSP technology will have been improved further, as the system would have been very young when first installed on the Networkers.
     
  15. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    It works well. Well as a passenger I think it does. Drivers may have different opinions!

    Seems the train did lose a minute but made it back. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G46412/2017/01/12/advanced

    The 387s are just fine for midday travel, having a nice big table to yourself and a power socket to charge your laptop. If only they were as good when busy!
     
  16. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    I don't think the 365 is too bad, although the Electrostar has an advantage in having three motored vehicles instead of two. The gradient profile is such that you shouldn't be getting too much slip leaving Potters Bar going north, nor Finsbury Park for that matter. 317s are a different matter and seem awful more or less everywhere, especially 4-cars! A lot is down to the individual driver though, and how he chooses to drive.
     
  17. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Increase the length ;)

    It does make me wonder if any diagrams are more suitable for them.

    For example would the 1807 London - Peterborough be a better option for 3x 387 and use the 365s on busier services?

    I still don't understand why GN refuse to use SDO and make the 1653 London - Cambridge 8 car (along with the weekend working)

    People say about trains over level crossing, but surely the solution is simple and you have make sure the train is stopped to avoid the level crossing and the correct doors are open.

    FGW at Thatcham seem to manage SDO and not foul the Thatcham level crossing. (but then the trains involved are 40 years old)
     
  18. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    The proper solution for the three stations is they should be lengthened. It should have happened years ago.

    I suspect the issue with the 16:53 is simply historical. It replaced the 16:52 KX to Letchworth, which was historically 1x317 or 1x365. Rather then lengthening this train, instead they scheduled a separate service terminating at Welwyn Garden City. So at the time they probably thought they were doing the passengers a favour by effectively providing 8 carriages worth of capacity, and at the same time giving faster journeys to those further out (avoiding stopping at places like New Barnet) *and* providing an extra service to Cambridge.

    Fast forward a few years and we are where we are. Up until the 387s there probably wasn't enough stock to lengthen the 16:53. Those with access to loading data would probably also notice that the 16:32 (8 cars) normally runs with spare seats, and I have a strong suspicion so does the 16:58 to WGC. Add in the fact that lengthening the 16:53 would have required some form of detachment, and I can see why it wasn't done - the simple reality is that there were probably other bigger priorities. Naturally there's less reason now, as with 365s due to go off-lease with (at present) no immediately taker, there's no reason why GN should be "short" of trains. Likewise the reduction of seating capacity on the 387s has changed things a little.

    There's much less excuse for lack of weekend lengthening though - this is simply a case of can't be bothered to do anything, see no evil hear no evil, and all that. Weekend passengers simply don't complain as much!
     
    Last edited: 12 Jan 2017
  19. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    When the 1658 was a 317 some people stood after leaving Finsbury Park, as was the case with the 1653. Now they are both 387s I suspect they both have standing. To be be honest 8 cars on the 1653 could be argued as not good use of stock. But the 387 is the worse train for this service. I think a 365 would have people standing comfortably. An improvement on the 387 but not as good as the 317 / 321.
     
  20. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Well fingers crossed for May. The 16:32 IIRC goes over to 2x365 from mid-February, so won't be treated to 387s.

    Welwyn does particularly badly out of the February changes - every fast service between 16:32 and 19:33 (exclusive) will be one or two 387s. 2134 KX to Royston also changes from 2x317 to 1x365 - that train was quite busy when it used to run as 1x317.
     
  21. class387

    class387 Member

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    Do you have any exact diagrams for Feburary?
     
  22. notverydeep

    notverydeep Member

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    Aboard 2R30 this evening, the 1752 King's Cross to Cambridge which I was disappointed to find has also succumbed to class 387s (126 and 125), I noticed that the train announced that you could, "change for one services", at Finsbury Park.

    As this is unlikely to refer to the erstwhile East Anglian TOC, this must be another bug looking up data in the wrong data table. I even wonder if instead of correcting the lookup to fix the 'Grand Central to East Coast' oddity, they have just changed the data in the table to the coach numbers, such that now when it should actually be looking up operators, thereby introducing a new bug!

    A problem with this hypothesis though, is that presumably operator 'one' mentioned at Finsbury Park would have to be London Underground, but this wasn't what the PIS used to say instead of coach 1...
     
    Last edited: 13 Jan 2017
  23. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    It's happened on all the 387 operated services I've caught.
     
  24. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I think the one problem was there before and isn't a side effect of fixing the coach/TOC problem.

    I hope when they roll out the fix, they'll also get someone to record 'Great Northern' too. And someone else puts the first class stickers in the right place, and also considers stickers on the internal doors to say you're entering first class (and maybe that you may walk through to access the other standard class accommodation, or indeed the toilet depending on where you are coming from).

    Does what I've said sound impossible?!
     
  25. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Are there any examples of DOO services anywhere else where trains stop with the driver's cab not adjacent to the platform? Indeed, until the platform lengthening is finished, you're talking about having a stopping position that is 80m away from the platform. HSTs that stop at Thatcham have a guard (but the rights and wrongs of DOO are for the DOO thread)
     
  26. whoosh

    whoosh Member

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    SDO on class 387s is only from the front coach working back. So you can only open the front three for example, not open only the rear three.

    So an eight car in the down direction would foul the level crossings at Shepreth and (very busy crossing) Foxton.
     
    Last edited: 14 Jan 2017
  27. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Fair point, when I think about other electrostars doing this, they have guards on that part of the route.

    The "one"'thing is weird. Was one even a operator when these trains were built?
     
  28. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Certainly not impossible but this is GTR you're talking about...

    They really should swap out the 1st class seats too with something a bit better. It can cost that much for a couple dozen seats per unit. They could even get some 1st class seats from redundant 442s (even standard class ones would be a step up from the ironing boards in 1st) ;)
     
  29. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    There are certainly some 3x321 services on Greater Anglia that stop with the leading unit off the platform. I think they have some kind of guard provided to work the SDO though.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Knowing GTR, they will probably replace the seats (with something 2-hand like out of the 442s), *then* decide they want to move the 1st to a more sensible location but now it's too difficult to move all the seats round.

    Took 2x387 home last night - rattles galore coming from the ceiling, felt crowded, and a couple complaining bitterly to each other about how they found the seats too hard and too upright. A familiar story, unfortunately.

    From February more of the Saturday stopping services will be going 387. From memory the single 317 diagram will change to 387, and if I recall correctly two stopping 365 diagrams also. This means most of the XX04/XX34 services on a Saturday will be 387s. These are probably the worst diagrams they could have selected for single 387s.
     
    Last edited: 14 Jan 2017
  30. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Agreed. Considering with 317 / 321s many are already left behind at Potters Bar, I suspect the can we board or will we need to get the slow and change debate will be moved to Hatfield. Progress hey?
     

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