Class 390 or 397

[Philip]

Just wonder which of these two electric trains do people prefer, and which of the two are more appropriate for long distance journeys?

I know there are a few factors to consider, but imagine there was a fleet of 5-coach Pendolinos; would these or the 397s be better for the Manc-Scots route? Or likewise a fleet of 11-coach 397s compared with 11-coach Pendolinos for current south WCML duties?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Just wonder which of these two electric trains do people prefer, and which of the two are more appropriate for long distance journeys?

I know there are a few factors to consider, but imagine there was a fleet of 5-coach Pendolinos; would these or the 397s be better for the Manc-Scots route? Or likewise a fleet of 11-coach 397s compared with 11-coach Pendolinos for current south WCML duties?

I'd say the 390 gets my vote as I've travelled on one from Milton Keynes to Glasgow before and it was pretty good.

I think if I were to travel on a 397 for that long, I'd have a numb bottom and a sore back!

390 is overall better for InterCity travel as it's more comfy and refined than a 397 and if you are doing hundreds of miles, you want comfort and refinement don't you?

Can't say about what would be better for the Man-Scot route, but for the WCML South I'd most definitely say 390s are the Rolls Royce of InterCity travel overall.

What other train tilts, and has comfy seats and is still quite modern? The only thing is dislike is that they are showing their age inside, so with the upcoming refurb that should make for a more modern interior, also the small windows aren't great.
It's a real shame they never did 140mph in service.


Also it's a shame there isn't any other tilting stock like it (Yes I know about the 221's before anyone pipes up!)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would always opt for the Class 390 because of it’s warm and cozy atmosphere. First class on them is also my favourite first class in the country.

 

[D365]

I would always opt for the Class 390 because of it’s warm and cozy atmosphere. First class on them is also my favourite first class in the country.

I don't think we even needed to read your post in order to know your answer!

Sadly I don't have a reasonable excuse to sample a Class 397 anytime soon, but I don't share the Pendolino sentiment. Too claustrophobic and gloomy inside, compared to even a Voyager.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd probably give them equal points - both have good and bad points.

 

[bramling]

Just wonder which of these two electric trains do people prefer, and which of the two are more appropriate for long distance journeys?

I know there are a few factors to consider, but imagine there was a fleet of 5-coach Pendolinos; would these or the 397s be better for the Manc-Scots route? Or likewise a fleet of 11-coach 397s compared with 11-coach Pendolinos for current south WCML duties?

390. I like the cosy atmosphere (make the most of it while it lasts?!), the only real downer is the combination of small windows and an unsympathetic seating layout in standard class, but to be honest providing one gets the right seat neither of these issues are a problem. A 390 journey is made or broken depending on where on sits.

 

[Bletchleyite]

390. I like the cosy atmosphere (make the most of it while it lasts?!), the only real downer is the combination of small windows and an unsympathetic seating layout in standard class, but to be honest providing one gets the right seat neither of these issues are a problem. A 390 journey is made or broken depending on where on sits.

I think that's where I mark 397s up a bit - while I prefer airline over table seating, I can comfortably (to the extent I can comfortably sit in any Fainsa Sophia) sit in any seat on a 397 but only about 5% of Standard seats in a 390 (as I will only fit in tables or priority rows). As I mostly travel walk-up, this is a considerable benefit of the 397.

The seats and ambiance of the 390 (quality, homely and welcoming) knock spots off the cheap-and-rattly 397. I really hope Avanti don't wreck it by installing cheap overbright "blue" daylight lighting.

If I get Coach A seat 45, then the Pendolino takes some beating. If all that was left was a windowless airline seat with regular pitch I'd rather a Pacer (Merseyrail type excepted) had shown up.

 

[Peter0124]

On a 390, Coach A seat 28 with that single table and plug socket and the (usually) empty luggage area at the bottom Infront for extra leg room and seat 48 way up the back are my go to seats when heading south, as I prefer sitting on the right hand side of the train (in that direction of travel) to see the other tracks. Though often 48 is monopolised by cyclists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though often 48 is monopolised by cyclists.

The two back right hand rows of Coach A are "reserved cyclist". It's the other side that's more attractive anyway

 

[bramling]

The two back right hand rows of Coach A are "reserved cyclist". It's the other side that's more attractive anyway

What does that actually mean, though? Does it mean someone has made a cycle reservation and the seat comes with it, or is it simply put on every train to keep those seats free for anyone with a cycle who happens to turn up?

I’ve certainly sat there many times with no issue - with folding bike in the convenient space behind, this making me a cyclist!

 

[driver9000]

397s may have their issues and shortcomings but for passenger travelling environment they beat the 390 hands down. It's been a long time since a train virtually guaranteed a window seat and tables, they don't smell like a mobile sewage farm, plenty of room and lots of natural light coming through the large picture windows. 397s are very quick off the mark too. I've always found the Pendolino dark, claustrophobic, poor for luggage, and slow in stations because the doors take an age to open waiting for the step to roll out. The 11 car sets are suited to the London service being people eaters though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does that actually mean, though? Does it mean someone has made a cycle reservation and the seat comes with it, or is it simply put on every train to keep those seats free for anyone with a cycle who happens to turn up?

I’ve certainly sat there many times with no issue - with folding bike in the convenient space behind, this making me a cyclist!

I believe it's the latter, because cycles can be booked up to 5 minutes before departure, so those 4 seats are effectively compulsory reservation to keep them free.

The chance of an issue is fairly low, though, as cyclists won't necessarily prefer to sit there (particularly if the extra-legroom seats on the other side are free).

 

[bramling]

I believe it's the latter, because cycles can be booked up to 5 minutes before departure, so those 4 seats are effectively compulsory reservation to keep them free.

The chance of an issue is fairly low, though, as cyclists won't necessarily prefer to sit there (particularly if the extra-legroom seats on the other side are free).

That ties in with my experience. I always just make sure I have a cycle helmet subtly but conspicuously on display, but it’s never been an issue. These are nice seats, especially being in the quiet carriage.

I didn’t realise the seats on the other side have more legroom, the ones on the right seem pretty generous? For some reason which I’ve never fully got to the bottom of I always prefer to travel on the right, which I’ve always put down to being right-handed.

The captive end of the 390s is a positive feature over other stock I find - in those seats you are guaranteed a pretty undisturbed journey. It’s a shame the same doesn’t apply at the first-class end!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That ties in with my experience. I always just make sure I have a cycle helmet subtly but conspicuously on display, but it’s never been an issue. These are nice seats, especially being in the quiet carriage.

I didn’t realise the seats on the other side have more legroom, the ones on the right seem pretty generous? For some reason which I’ve never fully got to the bottom of I always prefer to travel on the right, which I’ve always put down to being right-handed.

Yes, they're priority rows, but only the aisle seat is a priority seat (which is the case throughout the Pendolino).

If you look next time you're on one, the ones on the right (facing south) have about 8" or so of space behind them (which is handy for luggage), whereas the ones on the left are right up against the wall, so there's a few inches of extra space per seat in the 3 rows (though the third row isn't good because it has no window).

 

[bramling]

Yes, they're priority rows, but only the aisle seat is a priority seat (which is the case throughout the Pendolino).

If you look next time you're on one, the ones on the right (facing south) have about 8" or so of space behind them (which is handy for luggage), whereas the ones on the left are right up against the wall, so there's about 4" of extra space per seat in the two rows.

Ok. The space behind the seats on the right is very useful for luggage as you say. Indeed it fits a Brompton absolutely perfectly, and unlike the proper luggage racks elsewhere in the train you know someone isn’t going to come and pile stuff all over it.

For a southbound journey I’d say those seats are better than first-class due to the way they are undisturbed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a southbound journey I’d say those seats are better than first-class due to the way they are undisturbed.

They do of course have counterparts in coach K, but if you sit there you incur the wrath of those staff who consider it to be a messroom, a problem the TOC has never been willing to actually solve.

 

[bramling]

They do of course have counterparts in coach K, but if you sit there you incur the wrath of those staff who consider it to be a messroom, a problem the TOC has never been willing to actually solve.

Coach K is a complete pain all-round, which is a shame as it should offer the best experience on the train. Even at weekends when there’s no kitchen I’ve had the sole catering attendant sitting in there on the phone for much of the journey, and of course trying everything to dissuade people from going in there.

I’ve never understood why they couldn’t provide a dedicated mess-room somewhere in the forward part.

 

[43096]

Coach K is a complete pain all-round, which is a shame as it should offer the best experience on the train. Even at weekends when there’s no kitchen I’ve had the sole catering attendant sitting in there on the phone for much of the journey, and of course trying everything to dissuade people from going in there.

I’ve never understood why they couldn’t provide a dedicated mess-room somewhere in the forward part.

Why do they need a messroom on the train at all? They are meant to be working when on board. Breaks should be between turns - after all, the driver can't take a break while on board.

 

[bramling]

Why do they need a messroom on the train at all? They are meant to be working when on board. Breaks should be between turns - after all, the driver can't take a break while on board.

Don’t the catering staff do the whole journey, though? You won’t find a driver doing the whole length from Euston to Glasgow, except on the speed run!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coach K is a complete pain all-round, which is a shame as it should offer the best experience on the train. Even at weekends when there’s no kitchen I’ve had the sole catering attendant sitting in there on the phone for much of the journey, and of course trying everything to dissuade people from going in there.

I’ve never understood why they couldn’t provide a dedicated mess-room somewhere in the forward part.

TBH as they are mostly First Class stewards it would have made sense to put the partition to the kitchen one bay forward and put 8 Standard type seats in there to keep it separate. I see why there is a need for a facility but it should not be at the expense of the comfort of premium passengers.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Pendolino can be a little claustrophobic for some because of its tilting profile. The restricted UK loading gauge doesn't help either.

In contrast, back on an almost empty Glasgow to Manchester in late February just before COVID, the 397 felt light and airy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pendolino can be a little claustrophobic for some because of its tilting profile. The restricted UK loading gauge doesn't help either.

In contrast, back on an almost empty Glasgow to Manchester in late February just before COVID, the 397 felt light and airy.

To be fair, the 397 is, give or take some build quality issues and not enough airline seats, basically the "Class 344" (i.e. 444 with a pantograph) I've long said I wanted to see.

 

[221101 Voyager]

To be fair, the 397 is, give or take some build quality issues and not enough airline seats, basically the "Class 344" (i.e. 444 with a pantograph) I've long said I wanted to see.

If siemens had of built it, there woudn't be so many shoddy quality issues!

With regards to acceleration, didn't the 390 Pendolino have it's acceleration rate decreased at some point, as I remember reading it and thinking oh thats strange?

 

[LowLevel]

Why do they need a messroom on the train at all? They are meant to be working when on board. Breaks should be between turns - after all, the driver can't take a break while on board.

Because it suits the TOC to have an agreement that they take their breaks on board so they don't have to diagram them any time away from trains. Not unusual for catering crews and guards on IC services.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Having used Coach K on the Pendolinos many times, I’ve never seen the issue with the staff? I’ve seen them occupy the rear two seats which is perfectly fair imo as they are almost never occupied.

I’ve never seen them actively try to stop people from sitting in Coach K either, or is it only certain staff members that do it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If siemens had of built it, there woudn't be so many shoddy quality issues!

Quite

With regards to acceleration, didn't the 390 Pendolino have it's acceleration rate decreased at some point, as I remember reading it and thinking oh thats strange?

Don't know. I do recall the Voyagers were "throttled" a bit after initial testing, they used to feel like a plane taking off when new.

Having used Coach K on the Pendolinos many times, I’ve never seen the issue with the staff? I’ve seen them occupy the rear two seats which is perfectly fair imo as they are almost never occupied.

I’ve never seen them actively try to stop people from sitting in Coach K either, or is it only certain staff members that do it?

I've had it every single time I've tried to sit in Coach K. Perhaps they have had a talking to and been told to only use that back row which I think is now marked RESERVED STAFF. Though I'd rather they were allocated the back two rows on the 2 side rather than that back single seat which is actually very desirable.

To be fair the issue would be improved if some (perhaps half?)of the tables for 2 in the other 1st coaches were turned around to make more single seats. They're only desirable because there are only 6 (9-car) or 7 (11-car) of them in the whole train, of which 4 are in Coach K.

 

[supervc-10]

Don't the Pendolinos have an 'Eco mode' which reduces power? Which is used during normal operations, but then using a 'power' mode when trying to recover from disruption?

 

[londonmidland]

Being a CAF product my vote automatically goes to the 390.

CAF screams cheap, rattly and poor ride quality. No wonder they’re nicknamed Cheap As F*ck.

 

[Skie]

The 390 bog issue was fixed years ago, since the second fix (they didn't get it quite right the first time round) I've not been on one that has smelt unpleasant due to anything but the punters themselves.

I do like the subdued lighting on them too, definitely nice to have a lazy evening on them with it still dark outside or an early morning watching the sunset and the world tilting by. Don't feel the same way on anything with huge windows or bright lights.

 

[Mag_seven]

that back single seat which is actually very desirable.

I can't think of a seat that is more undesirable actually (next to all the comings and goings plus chat from the kitchen/galley area)