Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[yorksrob]

They were splendid units - but their likelihood to self-immolate probably means that it's time for them to go.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not another one...HSTs, 373s now 442s are going-all my favourite trains. I will miss them. Many happy memories on day trips as a child with a hot chocolate from the buffet.

 

[king_walnut]

Can someone quickly summarise the last 206 pages please? Why spend so much on them to just scrap them?

 

[Journeyman]

Can someone quickly summarise the last 206 pages please? Why spend so much on them to just scrap them?

TL;DR - COVID trashed growth, and made finishing the refurb and getting drivers trained more hassle than it was worth.

 

[43096]

TL;DR - COVID trashed growth, and made finishing the refurb and getting drivers trained more hassle than it was worth.

As I have already explained Covid is a red herring - the 458 swap is, if anything, a capacity increase.

 

[37424]

As I have already explained Covid is a red herring - the 458 swap is, if anything, a capacity increase.

I wouldn't say covid is a red herring in that it has created conditions which the quick increase in capacity can be ditched and given time for 458's to be displaced from there current services and refurbished before potentially being needed as demand builds back up.

As for using 350's perhaps there is an alternative being worked on by the leasing company and or the Dft which is not yet public and even if there isn't the leasing company may regard them as more leasable than the 458's.

As for the wasted money well this has essentially come about to some degree due to covid or at least it can be used as an excuse and compared to the other costs of covid on the railway alone its a drop in the ocean.

 

[StephenHunter]

As I have already explained Covid is a red herring - the 458 swap is, if anything, a capacity increase.

Also better for passenger loading and unloading.

 

[bramling]

I wouldn't say covid is a red herring in that it has created conditions which the quick increase in capacity can be ditched and given time for 458's to be displaced from there current services and refurbished before potentially being needed as demand builds back up.

As for using 350's perhaps there is an alternative being worked on by the leasing company and or the Dft which is not yet public and even if there isn't the leasing company may regard them as more leasable than the 458's.

As for the wasted money well this has essentially come about to some degree due to covid or at least it can be used as an excuse and compared to the other costs of covid on the railway alone its a drop in the ocean.

I suspect Covid is a way of burying potentially embarrassing news, but apart from allowing a bit of breathing space which wouldn’t have otherwise been there, it seems like the bigger issue is simply the 442 project was running into too many problems.

 

[DorkingMain]

I suspect Covid is a way of burying potentially embarrassing news, but apart from allowing a bit of breathing space which wouldn’t have otherwise been there, it seems like the bigger issue is simply the 442 project was running into too many problems.

This is exactly it. A major issue was found with the retractioned 442s and it would have resulted in many many more millions to fix.

 

[306024]

Can someone quickly summarise the last 206 pages please? Why spend so much on them to just scrap them?

Haven’t read the last 206 pages, but my recollection was that the refurbishment plan was part of the winning franchise bid, in response to the Portsmouth line rail users who were up in arms at having to travel on a class 450. The combination of trying to do an eye-catching bid, and the DfT falling for it, rarely ends well.

My last run on one of these lumbering giants was from London Bridge to Lewes, which managed to lose 10 minutes without trying. Felt then that their time had come.

 

[Journeyman]

This is exactly it. A major issue was found with the retractioned 442s and it would have resulted in many many more millions to fix.

Do we know what the major issue is? It seems surprising, given that the 455 retractioning project seemed to go very well.

 

[bramling]

For the benefit of those of us who haven’t been following this saga quite that closely, any chance of a very brief summary of what the major issue actually is with the retractioning?

 

[spark001uk]

This is exactly it. A major issue was found with the retractioned 442s and it would have resulted in many many more millions to fix.

What issue was that? They've only done a few runs with one in SPZ haven't they?

 

[37424]

For the benefit of those of us who haven’t been following this saga quite that closely, any chance of a very brief summary of what the major issue actually is with the retractioning?

Does it actually matter? regardless of whether there were issues with the retractioning or not there were clearly other pertinent issues such as 2024 PRM regulations and a window of opportunity to go for modern traction in a changed environment where the original franchise no longer applies.

 

[bramling]

Does it actually matter? regardless of whether there were issues with the retractioning or not there were clearly other pertinent issues such as 2024 PRM regulations and a window of opportunity to go for modern traction in a changed environment where the original franchise no longer applies.

Just curious, that’s all.

 

[apinnard]

What issue was that? They've only done a few runs with one in SPZ haven't they?

the new motors probably weren’t powerful enough.

 

[4REP]

Yup my last failure on them was at Branksome in Feb 2007, and I couldn't get the spanner to fix it…(TIS job) Motors were a bit dodgy at times...Plus door control MCB wouldn't stand once when on the 0630 so out of service and empty to Bournemouth.
2413 was called The Slug at one time...I think one set of motors wasn't working properly as rumour has it...

Given the carpet will have holes in it from all the seats and have been cut around the floor fixtures dividers etc I doubt it will be reusable. Also Axminster will be more than happy to produce another run of carpet.

And a further number of years for repaint!!! As time taken with desiros

 

[Journeyman]

the new motors probably weren’t powerful enough.

Surely that's far too much of a rookie mistake.

 

[northernbelle]

TL;DR - COVID trashed growth, and made finishing the refurb and getting drivers trained more hassle than it was worth.

I suspect it's not really about growth or Covid - more about cutting the projected costs and reducing cost risk going forward.

 

[DorkingMain]

the new motors probably weren’t powerful enough.

It was not this.

I'm loathed to repeat what I've heard it was because it was quite serious and I'd rather not post slanderous things on a rail forum, especially with my employment. But it was not something that's easy to fix.

I suspect it's not really about growth or Covid - more about cutting the projected costs and reducing cost risk going forward.

COVID and reduced passenger numbers seem like a convenient thing to blame for a failed project, more than anything.

 

[yorkie]

...I'm loathed to repeat what I've heard it was because it was quite serious and I'd rather not post slanderous things on a rail forum, ....

If it's slanderous it's not true, so that's a good reason not to repeat it!

 

[bb21]

Is it though? I have yet to ride in a power door version (other than the Chiltern mk3s, but they've had their day. I am a semi regular user of Norwich to London Liverpool at and the mk3s had an appalling ride quality, inevitably you'd be sat in a draft as the droplights were left open and folk walking through a carriage led to an icy draft going through the carriage. The toilets were cramped and disgusting. It was uncomfortable to work at the table as the seats slopped so far back. Since the introduction of the new units the journey has been utterly transformed into something enjoyable rather than something to be endured.

I think you missed the fact his tongue was firmly in his cheek, and having a subtle dig at certain groups for whom HSTs must not be bad-mouthed.

 

[southern442]

Exactly. I live in Scotland, and the HST project has been an absolute farce. I hate the useless old piles of junk they've become! All my recent journeys on them have been beset by poor ride quality and annoying defects.

At least they actually got them into service!

Incidentally I'm not sure the ones down south have had nearly as many complaints, although I doubt they are as intensively used mind you.

 

[Journeyman]

At least they actually got them into service!

Just! Anyway, that's not a topic to dwell on here.

 

[Flying Snail]

Exactly. I live in Scotland, and the HST project has been an absolute farce. I hate the useless old piles of junk they've become! All my recent journeys on them have been beset by poor ride quality and annoying defects.

The reasons why HST and hauled Mk3s often now have bad ride quality when for decades they were consistently excellent is worthy of a separate discussion, it is probably worth pointing out that 442s had a completely different bogie design to the earlier Mk3s.

 

[Railengineer]

Can someone quickly summarise the last 206 pages please? Why spend so much on them to just scrap them?

Can someone quickly summarise the last 206 pages please? Why spend so much on them to just scrap them?

It was a Worst Group vanity project.
I have been vindicated at long last!

 

[pompeyfan]

350 debate here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/reasons-for-and-against-using-350-2s-to-replace-442s.215890/

 

[Nym]

As I have already explained Covid is a red herring - the 458 swap is, if anything, a capacity increase.

And there were significant issues with the AC Tractioned units, and the process of getting them through said contractor.

the new motors probably weren’t powerful enough.

That's not the issue.

In combination with one very big issue, there were also many, many small issues. For example, letting a whole separate contract to replace the cab desk after you get the 1st unit back from your prime contractor. That has to be symptomatic of much deeper issues.

If it's slanderous it's not true, so that's a good reason not to repeat it!

I suspect the wrong term has been used more than anything else. Either way, those of us who know would not be very sensible if we declared what it was in a public forum.

 

[adc82140]

If there is a serious issue as alluded to, and I'm not fishing for more info about what it may be here, I wonder if there's potential for SWR to recoup some of their money through legal channels.

 

[JonathanH]

If there is a serious issue as alluded to, and I'm not fishing for more info about what it may be here, I wonder if there's potential for SWR to recoup some of their money through legal channels.

...or an out of court settlement which both parties amicably settle on that doesn't bring the issue to the fore which seems more likely.