Class 442s - storage, refurbishment and redeployment

richa2002

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Taken from the 'Class 387' thread:
Don't forget the plan is by the end of the year to only have Electrostars on the BML bar the Eastbourne 442s.
Is the plan for these to be replaced by 387/2s and if so, when is this expected to begin?

Many thanks.
 
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hwl

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Taken from the 'Class 387' thread:

Is the plan for these to be replaced by 387/2s and if so, when is this expected to begin?

Many thanks.
387/1s are due to be completed and delivered by end of May so if the 387/2 follow on immediately and are built at the same rate then presumably the first few would be in service late June, they might need to speed up a little to deliver all before the end of the year though.
 

Yabbadabba

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I believe the plan is that the Eastbourne 442s get replaced by 377s released by the 700s once the full fleet is in service.
 

physics34

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442s stored somewhere or straight to the scrapyard???

I bet they go and get stored at Eastleigh again.
 

ScotGG

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Seems mad to be storing or scrapping units to be replaced by 387s, which could go to Southeastern for 2 years to help with increasing overcrowding & a lack of stock, at least until 2018/19 when Crossrail opens.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Seems mad to be storing or scrapping units to be replaced by 387s which could go to Southeastern for 2 years to help with increasing overcrowding & a lack of stock, at least until 2018/19 when Crossrail opens.
Probably not viable with the traction motors being on borrowed time, there'd be too much of a risk of breakdowns
 

jopsuk

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Even ignoring the traction motors issue, what SE routes would you have them run? You're looking to get diagrams that don't interwork with unsuitable routes and that can handle (if using them in pairs) the equivalent of a 12-car networker/electrostar (10x23 being only a little shorter than 12x20). You need services that have very limited stops otherwise you'll get dwell time issues.
 

Fincra5

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Hate to say it but there's not really anywhere the 442's can fit on on 3rd rail land anymore.
 

sarahj

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The only job they would be good as it the Brighton Expresses, and they will be gone by the end of the year, replaced by extending Gatwick Expresses.

In a way sad that they will be going. Yes they have issues, but have a decent inside, none of this 3+2 rubbish and a decent first class. (and a guards van ;)).
 

Deepgreen

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The only job they would be good as it the Brighton Expresses, and they will be gone by the end of the year, replaced by extending Gatwick Expresses.

In a way sad that they will be going. Yes they have issues, but have a decent inside, none of this 3+2 rubbish and a decent first class. (and a guards van ;)).
Technically the last slam door units on the Southern, albeit only the inwards-opening guard's doors!
 

The Ham

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In a way sad that they will be going. Yes they have issues, but have a decent inside, none of this 3+2 rubbish and a decent first class. (and a guards van ;)).
...however in my view the 444's are much better, less of a step up, more space for cycles which is easier to access, brighter and airer, better facilities for disabled users, nearly twice as many, etc.

It would be interesting to see if Siemens produce (or at least are willing to produce) a 23m version of their Desiro City with a similar configuration.
 

Minstral25

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The only job they would be good as it the Brighton Expresses, and they will be gone by the end of the year, replaced by extending Gatwick Expresses.

In a way sad that they will be going. Yes they have issues, but have a decent inside, none of this 3+2 rubbish and a decent first class. (and a guards van ;)).
But could the 387/2's go to SouthEastern until 2018 to help capacity issues and the 442s stay on the BML a bit longer running extensions to Brighton?
 

ScotGG

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Even ignoring the traction motors issue, what SE routes would you have them run? You're looking to get diagrams that don't interwork with unsuitable routes and that can handle (if using them in pairs) the equivalent of a 12-car networker/electrostar (10x23 being only a little shorter than 12x20). You need services that have very limited stops otherwise you'll get dwell time issues.
Sorry, was a bit ambiguous. I meant some 387s going to Southeastern for 2 years to help relieve overcrowding there during the London Bridge work, instead of all the 387s going to Southern to displace 442s. Could the 442s be kept on running to Eastbourne/Brighton expresses doing their current job for just a bit longer? Only for 2 years or so. SE are due to get cascades of 377/1s but only when LB work is complete and Crossrail is opening. That leaves 3 years of overcrowding we are seeing now.

EDIT: Just seen what Minstral put above - that was my point.
 
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physics34

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I really wouldve put 442s back on Wloo to Weymouth.... even with new traction equipment...... with 444s replacing some 450 diagrams... and then some 450s replacing some 455s.
 

Minstral25

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Sorry, was a bit ambiguous. I meant some 387s going to Southeastern for 2 years to help relieve overcrowding there during the London Bridge work, instead of all the 387s going to Southern to displace 442s. Could the 442s be kept on running to Eastbourne/Brighton expresses doing their current job for just a bit longer? Only for 2 years or so. SE are due to get cascades of 377/1s but only when LB work is complete and Crossrail is opening. That leaves 3 years of overcrowding we are seeing now.

EDIT: Just seen what Minstral put above - that was my point.
Yes - I'd assumed you meant that so repeated it - should have put credit in too Sorry
 

bb21

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I really wouldve put 442s back on Wloo to Weymouth.... even with new traction equipment...... with 444s replacing some 450 diagrams... and then some 450s replacing some 455s.
With the revised interior? No, thank you. You can keep them. ;)

With so much overcrowding on South Eastern, the mind boggles that we would rather scrap perfectly serviceable trains than allow SET to have the 387/2s for a few years.
 

Wolfie

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With the revised interior? No, thank you. You can keep them. ;)

With so much overcrowding on South Eastern, the mind boggles that we would rather scrap perfectly serviceable trains than allow SET to have the 387/2s for a few years.
Firstly why are they ok for Southern services to Brighton and Eastbourne but not SWT services to Weymouth...

More seriously (my bold) - BUT are they???

According to many on here, who seem to be in a position to know, they were on their last legs due to their traction equipment being shot without serious (uneconomic?) investment when SWT got rid. What makes you think things are better now?

The regular failures and fires rather casts doubt on that....

oh, and why the 387/2s which must surely have some adaptation for the airport role? If you really wanted to release Electrostars to reduce SouthEastern crowding surely early model 377s with 3+2 seating would make more sense...
 
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hwl

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With the revised interior? No, thank you. You can keep them. ;)

With so much overcrowding on South Eastern, the mind boggles that we would rather scrap perfectly serviceable trains than allow SET to have the 387/2s for a few years.
The issue with SET and any extra stock is presumably DfT agreeing to pay for it due to the increase in subsidy on SET?

TSGN will have to introduce the 387/2s on GatEx or they presumably won't get some of their of the management contract payments?
 

HarleyDavidson

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Juice up the North Downs line and use the 442s on there, nice 5 car sets that would be just right for the North Downs line with their 1600 hp under the MBLS or MLC, which would demolish the steep grades between Guildford & Redhill with aplomb.

They could also provide a through service to London as well, one 5 coming in from Wokingham & another coming in from Reigate to combine at Guildford as 10 car to London.
 

Helvellyn

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As much as I'd like to see the 442's back with SWT, they wouldn't be able to be used on the Weymouth line as 24 units isn't enough to cover the diagrams complete.

If they came back, they'd have to be massively upgraded below the floor. New traction motors and also associated traction equipment - I believe quite a bit was recycled from the REP's.

Even if this was feasible - and the cost would be quite high - are there traction motors out there with the equivalent power (if not a bit more to give better acceleration) to replace the ex-REP traction motors?

The next issue is that the doors are probably a bit too narrow. Performance is key, and SWT would not want to take on a unit that could have longer dwell times than even a 444. So I'd suggest a Chiltern style upgrade (that uses the 444 door mechanism). Whilst still narrow in comparison to a 450, at least with a new mechanism the doors would open/close quicker.

Interior wise you'd need a high capacity interior. Whilst not to everyone's tastes, FGW has shown what can be done with the Mark 3. So whilst Chilternisation of the vestibules would eat into the saloon a little, I believe that with no luggage stacks and one toilet per trailer, it would be possible to seat 82/84 in the trailers. The Motor coach is pretty much open now, apart from the Guards saloon. The former DTCsoL could be fitted out with 36 First Class seats, a universal loo and two wheelchair spaces, plus a handful of standard seats. I believe that it would be possible to get a 10-car train that would seat the same number of First Class passengers as a 12-car 450 and 40-50 less Standard Class passengers.

So where could SWT use 24 such units? My only suggestion would be the fast Waterloo-Portsmouth services. The problem is that whilst having these units on the Portsmouth line might be popular with passengers - and offer more capacity than a 10-car 444 - I'm not sure the DfT would accept it, as it would be a loss of capacity on the Portsmouth line. Love or hate 450's, on paper they offer more seats - whether used or not.
 

bb21

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Firstly why are they ok for Southern services to Brighton and Eastbourne but not SWT services to Weymouth...

More seriously (my bold) - BUT are they???
Because they have them now. Keep them away from the SWML.

Surely you can see that it was a tongue-in-cheek comment?

According to many on here, who seem to be in a position to know, they were on their last legs due to their traction equipment being shot without serious (uneconomic?) investment when SWT got rid. What makes you think things are better now?
I didn't, but with SouthEastern suffering chronic overcrowding, any available stock would help. 442s may not be the best rolling stock this country has ever come up with, but they still do a job satisfactorily.

If they really are that bad. Diagram them so that they are only used in the peaks to boost capacity.

oh, and why the 387/2s which must surely have some adaptation for the airport role? If you really wanted to release Electrostars to reduce SouthEastern crowding surely early model 377s with 3+2 seating would make more sense...
Then swap out the 377s. Not really rocket science.
 

Wolfie

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Because they have them now. Keep them away from the SWML.

Surely you can see that it was a tongue-in-cheek comment?
Truthfully I wasn't sure. I was also very confused about why someone who's location is shown as Leidcester cared about the SWML!!!


I didn't, but with SouthEastern suffering chronic overcrowding, any available stock would help. 442s may not be the best rolling stock this country has ever come up with, but they still do a job satisfactorily.

If they really are that bad. Diagram them so that they are only used in the peaks to boost capacity.
I guess the problem there is that, with London Bridge already suffering, screwing up the lines out of Victoria by continuing to run clapped out heaps in the peak may not go down too well with Southern passengers...


Then swap out the 377s. Not really rocket science.
Now, was your cunning plan to happen, we are in violent agreement on this one. I can't see Southern wanting to let their shiny new 387s (the ones they are actually going to keep!) go anywhere near some of SouthEastern's more "interesting" areas either....
 

Bald Rick

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What is little known about these units is the complications they cause in timetabling them amongst the 377s. With longer dwell times, poor acceleration and only 9%g braking, various fudges and fiddles have been put into the Brighton Main Line timetable to get it to work.

Unfortunately, as is plain to see, the various fudges and fiddles don't work, and these units have been demonstrated through detailed analysis to be a notable contributor to the underlying poor performance of the Brighton line. (Without going into detail, the base timetable is responsible for twice as many % PPM failures on Southern than any other south east operator).

The same would apply if they were put on to any other intensively worked railway that had a fleet formed of rolling stock that performs consistently, eg SE or SWT.

The traction equipment is also remarkably 'noisy', to the extent that it is suspected to regularly cause signal failures. Several this year alone, including a couple at London Bridge.

Their best hope for the future is as hauled stock.
 

ScotGG

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The issue with SET and any extra stock is presumably DfT agreeing to pay for it due to the increase in subsidy on SET?

TSGN will have to introduce the 387/2s on GatEx or they presumably won't get some of their of the management contract payments?
That high SE subsidy is in large part down to HS1 isn't it? Pretty crazy system which would restrict additional, and badly needed, stock on Southeastern's inner London services asap due to subsidy needed on a HS line that serves areas of Kent an hour away, and never get close to the areas served by inner London metro services.

The problem isn't going away. Greenwich and Lewisham boroughs will see 10% population growth before new stock arrives on SE. Of course there's little tube or DLR services for much of those boroughs so many will have to use the trains. As many as 60k extra people in the next 3 years.

It will seem pretty odd if 442's that run express services to Brighton & Eastbourne are stored or scrapped imminently (and have those diagrams replaced by 377s or 387s) if the 442s could be kept on a couple more years and some of those 377s or 387s go to SE in the short term and work long distance routes currently using 465/9s, which could then move to bolster inner London services.

That seems to be the plan in 2018. Speed it up if at all possible.
 
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theageofthetra

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Possible use on SET of the 442's would be the T.Wells terminators. This would release 465/9's to Metro work. Mind you how long would the traction course be- aren't they two handed controls like the 319's
 

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