Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[Train Boy]

Any chance you could just remind us what MTIN stands for?

Miles per Technical Incident Number

 

[pompeyfan]

Miles per Technical Incident Number

In that case that’s absolutely jaw dropping that it’s gone from 180,000 to just 35,000 in just 2 years.

 

[Train Boy]

In that case that’s absolutely jaw dropping that it’s gone from 180,000 to just 35,000 in just 2 years.

All classes with SWR, from 2017 to 2018, have had a heavy decrease in reliabilty (except 707s).

158s are down by 62%
159s are down by 59%
444s are down by 64%
450s are down by 53%
455s are down by 52%
456s are down by 35%
458s are down by 47%

(To correct myself, 444s score in 2016 was actually 171,000 but as you say, it is jaw dropping)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In that case that’s absolutely jaw dropping that it’s gone from 180,000 to just 35,000 in just 2 years.

From 2016 to 2017 it virtually halved....
There is a strong view amongst many the Siemens contract could have been managed better.

 

[cactustwirly]

From my personal experience, regularly using services on the South Western Mainline from Weymouth to Waterloo, it felt that shortly after the franchise announcement in March 2017, the condition of the 444s did decrease. The external doors got stuck a lot more or wouldn't lock, more threadbare seats than before, things like this.

I did expect it because the view I saw it as for Stagecoach- what's the point of spending money to keep them in top condition for the remaining 5 months?

The reliability of the 444s has heavily decreased, with 180,000 MTIN score in 2016 down to 100,000 in 2017 and finally 35,000 in 2018. They haven't got better since then, that is for sure!

But Stagecoach (SWT) weren't responsible for the maintenance of 444s, nor the 450s!
That's down to Siemens

 

[RichSwitch]

Units were not in that bad of a state, the corrision was rectified relatively quickly. Delays caused by sub contractors dropping the ball during the refurbishment and modifications to the traction interlock system taking longer than expected. Doesn't help NR have taken forever and a day to get route clearance on the Portsmouth direct.

With any luck NR won’t give them their clearance on the direct. Sounds to me like either:
(a) Someone in SWR made a big mistake in accepting them, or
(b) Someone elsewhere knew what a state they were in, and wanted them shifted to someone else’s cost base à la sharpish.

Maybe both

Incidentally, what’s going to happen when there are operational or engineering diverts for example via the new line or Staines? Are they supposed to be cleared for those too? The bay platform at Fareham?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

With any luck NR won’t give them their clearance on the direct. Sounds to me like either:
(a) Someone in SWR made a big mistake in accepting them, or
(b) Someone elsewhere knew what a state they were in, and wanted them shifted to someone else’s cost base à la sharpish.

Maybe both

Incidentally, what’s going to happen when there are operational or engineering diverts for example via the new line or Staines? Are they supposed to be cleared for those too? The bay platform at Fareham?

Why ‘with any luck’ won’t they get clearance - it’s not as if the country is awash with spare 3rd rail or diesel trains to go into traffic in the May timetable for the necessary capacity increase? For example replacing an 8 car 450 on trains like the 16.00 Waterloo to Pompey with 10-442 ultimately allow the 450s be spread around the network for strengthening and extra services. Trains like the additional Windsor line peak services are desperately needed!

Tell someone who commutes from Winchester having an additional 07.45 arrival into Waterloo or someone from Haslemere and additional 08.05 arrival into Waterloo isn’t needed.... the 442s are needed to deliver these there is no other suitable stock spare and new builds (examples include 385s, 710s, CAF hauled stock) aren’t having a success getting into traffic so what is your alternative proposal?

The main issue has been a number of smaller issues do to with the changes made in the previous refurb, the corrosion is no worse as being found on Scottish HST mk3s. Much is said about 350/2s don’t forget these have been going through corrosion repairs done by Chrysalisrail at Long Marston!
http://chrysalisrail.com/about-us/our-history/

442s are already re-cleared via Cobham it’s the direct near Worplesdon that’s the issue and they will also be able to divert via Staines and Fareham, they won’t fit in the bay at Fareham as they will run round as 10 cars.

 

[43096]

All classes with SWR, from 2017 to 2018, have had a heavy decrease in reliabilty (except 707s).

158s are down by 62%
159s are down by 59%
444s are down by 64%
450s are down by 53%
455s are down by 52%
456s are down by 35%
458s are down by 47%

(To correct myself, 444s score in 2016 was actually 171,000 but as you say, it is jaw dropping)

2017 to 2018 of course covers the first full year since the switch to WorstGroup control. There is plenty of evidence of SWR having cut stock holding and maintenance budgets, but they have also predictably clouded the issue by saying they have changed the way the data is reported.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

2017 to 2018 of course covers the first full year since the switch to WorstGroup control. There is plenty of evidence of SWR having cut stock holding and maintenance budgets, but they have also predictably clouded the issue by saying they have changed the way the data is reported.

Can’t really answer on that but SWT did end up reporting quite a lot of what would be fleet issues in other TOCs as unexplained traincrew, hence never winning anything at the golden whistles despite certainly on the main lines having the most respected guards of any for the former Southern Regions - a bit smoke and mirrors but how much that accounts for the change I don’t know.

As someone in Swindon Control once said the 158 that was hired on a daily basis to FGW did perform better than their own 158s but wasn’t twice as reliable as theirs which is what performance figures showed it should be, I suspect the answer was somewhere in the middle.

It will be interesting to see how 442s fare compared to previous SWR existence and their later southern existence, they have always a bit like the 458s been a bit of a problem child.

 

[43096]

Can’t really answer on that but SWT did end up reporting quite a lot of what would be fleet issues in other TOCs as unexplained traincrew, hence never winning anything at the golden whistles despite certainly on the main lines having the most respected guards of any for the former Southern Regions - a bit smoke and mirrors but how much that accounts for the change I don’t know.

As someone in Swindon Control once said the 158 that was hired on a daily basis to FGW did perform better than their own 158s but wasn’t twice as reliable as theirs which is what performance figures showed it should be, I suspect the answer was somewhere in the middle.

It will be interesting to see how 442s fare compared to previous SWR existence and their later southern existence, they have always a bit like the 458s been a bit of a problem child.

I was using the 458s daily for several years after they made their return, with SWT eventually getting reliability (as reported) to over 100,000 MTIN. Do I believe those numbers? Well, given the mileage I was doing it would equate to one failure every two years on the trains I was actually on. That absolutely tallies with my recollection of faults down to the sets.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Sorry to digress to the matter at hand but training on 442s for guards finally got underway today with what appears to be two courses per week (subject to unit availability). A May start is looking a little more firm now, notwithstanding gauging issues at Worplesdon.

 

[Goldfish62]

Can’t really answer on that but SWT did end up reporting quite a lot of what would be fleet issues in other TOCs as unexplained traincrew, hence never winning anything at the golden whistles despite certainly on the main lines having the most respected guards of any for the former Southern Regions - a bit smoke and mirrors but how much that accounts for the change I don’t know.

As someone in Swindon Control once said the 158 that was hired on a daily basis to FGW did perform better than their own 158s but wasn’t twice as reliable as theirs which is what performance figures showed it should be, I suspect the answer was somewhere in the middle.

It will be interesting to see how 442s fare compared to previous SWR existence and their later southern existence, they have always a bit like the 458s been a bit of a problem child.

Yes, it was widely suspected in the industry, and by Roger Ford and Michael Holden, that SWT were cooking the books.

On the positive side the Class 707s are consistently the best performers of the new generation trains, although still not particularly impressive.

 

[pompeyfan]

Going back to TINs being thrown about in between departments, I’d assume most TOCs would operate in a similar way in that fleet will do absolutely anything to avoid the tin coming out their budget? It’s still the same guys at head of department I’m sure (except head of drivers) so not sure why the delays aren’t landing on the guards desk anymore.

 

[lj9090]

Just spotted 442408 & 442411 go by.

 

[hwl]

It will be interesting to see how 442s fare compared to previous SWR existence and their later southern existence,

Pretty badly on overall performance at Southern, with the London Bridge rebuild performance issues NR started having a very good look and it wasn't good. The 442s electrical systems caused a huge number of track circuit and other electrical issues! (As can bee seen with the late addition of the need to replace the auxiliary power equipment as well as the traction equipment.)
The dwell time issues on GatEx were getting progressively worse.

Much more to rolling stock performance than just MTIN alone.

 

[aleggatta]

Pretty badly on overall performance at Southern, with the London Bridge rebuild performance issues NR started having a very good look and it wasn't good. The 442s electrical systems caused a huge number of track circuit and other electrical issues! (As can bee seen with the late addition of the need to replace the auxiliary power equipment as well as the traction equipment.)
The dwell time issues on GatEx were getting progressively worse.

Much more to rolling stock performance than just MTIN alone.

It will be interesting to see how well they fit in with the SWR timetable. I expect they wont be THAT bad taking into account the slow door operation on the Desirio's, where as comparing them to something like an Electrostar would be significantly worse with regards to stock performance.

 

[hwl]

It will be interesting to see how well they fit in with the SWR timetable. I expect they wont be THAT bad taking into account the slow door operation on the Desirio's, where as comparing them to something like an Electrostar would be significantly worse with regards to stock performance.

They should be better post retractioning too as acceleration isn't great in their current condition.

 

[TEW]

It will be interesting to see how well they fit in with the SWR timetable. I expect they wont be THAT bad taking into account the slow door operation on the Desirio's, where as comparing them to something like an Electrostar would be significantly worse with regards to stock performance.

I still think that the narrow doorway and large step will cause dwell time issues. Shouldn't be too much of a problem off peak, but can see some long dwells in the peak. Any calls at stations with short platforms will likely see dwell time increases too as 442s will only be able to front 5 SDO, with Desiros passengers have been used to being able to use more coaches for several years now.

 

[theironroad]

It will be interesting to see how well they fit in with the SWR timetable. I expect they wont be THAT bad taking into account the slow door operation on the Desirio's, where as comparing them to something like an Electrostar would be significantly worse with regards to stock performance.

One of the reasons I believe they are intending (from the outset) to use them primarily on Pompey direct 'fast' services was dwell time.

 

[theironroad]

I still think that the narrow doorway and large step will cause dwell time issues. Shouldn't be too much of a problem off peak, but can see some long dwells in the peak. Any calls at stations with short platforms will likely see dwell time increases too as 442s will only be able to front 5 SDO, with Desiros passengers have been used to being able to use more coaches for several years now.

I guess that the sdo issue only applies to Fratton when being used on the Pompey direct, if they stick to the plan to use them on 'fast'.

 

[TEW]

I guess that the sdo issue only applies to Fratton when being used on the Pompey direct, if they stick to the plan to use them on 'fast'.

The theoretical 442 diagrams for December 2018 had them on the 1815 Waterloo to Portsmouth & Southsea which calls at quite a few shorter stations. Who knows what will happen in May, but wouldn't be surprised to see them on some services which do call at more stations.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The theoretical 442 diagrams for December 2018 had them on the 1815 Waterloo to Portsmouth & Southsea which calls at quite a few shorter stations. Who knows what will happen in May, but wouldn't be surprised to see them on some services which do call at more stations.

442s will largely be confined to fast services so as mentioned Fratton will be the only core SDO; there is one semi-fast where they stop at stations such as Liphook and Liss as mentioned above, dwells have been increased on that service to give an extra 30 seconds at most stations.

 

[Bigfoot]

Hearing the 442s have been banished due to severe corrosion. Training set at fratton moved to Bournemouth at very slow speed over the weekend.

 

[superalbs]

Hearing the 442s have been banished due to severe corrosion. Training set at fratton moved to Bournemouth at very slow speed over the weekend.

"Banished"?

 

[JonathanH]

Hearing the 442s have been banished due to severe corrosion. Training set at fratton moved to Bournemouth at very slow speed over the weekend.

Are you suggesting that the 442 restoration is going to be stopped? When do the 350/2s (or something else) become available, (notwithstanding the need for a DC conversion)? Is there really work for 127 450s in SWR's long term plan (allowing for 442s and 701s)?

 

[Bigfoot]

Are you suggesting that the 442 restoration is going to be stopped? When do the 350/2s (or something else) become available, (notwithstanding the need for a DC conversion)? Is there really work for 127 450s in SWR's long term plan (allowing for 442s and 701s)?

I am suggesting nothing. Purely stating what I have heard from a few people and have also seen at Fratton that there is no 442 lurking there today.

As to any other plans no, no idea. Of course there is work for longer trains. If every train was its maximum length they would still be full and standing in the morning and evening peaks. Financially sensible, perhaps not.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there really work for 127 450s in SWR's long term plan (allowing for 442s and 701s)?

Yes of course there is. They are needed for the full increased timetable.
Only the 442s are actually providing a significant number of extra trains, the 701 fleet (750 vehicles) replaces the 707, 458, 455 and 456s (742 vehicles) almost exactly...

 

[cjmillsnun]

Hearing the 442s have been banished due to severe corrosion. Training set at fratton moved to Bournemouth at very slow speed over the weekend.

The corrosion has already been addressed. It could be there was another fault or the sets at Fratton were due some kind of exam which necessitated them going to Bomo.

 

[pompeyfan]

I believe NR will not clear the refurbished 442s as the change in weight has messed the ride height and profile, and using the sets that haven’t yet been modified for training runs would be now be counter productive. Nothing official just speculation FYI.

 

[43096]

I believe NR will not clear the refurbished 442s as the change in weight has messed the ride height and profile, and using the sets that haven’t yet been modified for training runs would be now be counter productive. Nothing official just speculation FYI.

So the usual “in the absence of anything official let’s guess/make something up”, as we have seen so many times.