Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[TEW]

I believe NR will not clear the refurbished 442s as the change in weight has messed the ride height and profile, and using the sets that haven’t yet been modified for training runs would be now be counter productive. Nothing official just speculation FYI.

The latest Class 442 route clearance bulletin suggests they are finally getting near where they need to be with route clearance, it refers to both refreshed and unrefurbished units, admittedly ECS only though.

 

[pompeyfan]

So the usual “in the absence of anything official let’s guess/make something up”, as we have seen so many times.

It was based on word of mouth by someone involved in the project but as TEW mentions they’re slowly being cleared. Certainly training has been suspended this week.

 

[Monty]

Spoke to the trainer who signed me off on these units back in December, says the stories of their untimely demise is just that, stories.

 

[DelW]

So the usual “in the absence of anything official let’s guess/make something up”, as we have seen so many times.

But since "official" sources usually seem to believe that covering up bad news will make it go away, such unofficial rumours are on occasions the first that passengers actually hear about what's really happening.

Spoke to the trainer who signed me off on these units back in December, says the stories of their untimely demise is just that, stories.

I do hope he's right, I'm looking forward to May's enhanced timetable on the Direct, which I presume will need at least a part of the 442 fleet to be in service by then.

 

[pompeyfan]

Spoke to the trainer who signed me off on these units back in December, says the stories of their untimely demise is just that, stories.

Have you heard about the 2 in Eastleigh that are having AC work done which will remove the need for a crew brake test and will ultimately remove the passenger egress ‘risk’?

 

[43096]

But since "official" sources usually seem to believe that covering up bad news will make it go away, such unofficial rumours are on occasions the first that passengers actually hear about what's really happening.

For “passengers” read “spotters who think they have some sort of right to be told everything”. See the ScotRail HST thread for a classic example.

 

[DelW]

For “passengers” read “spotters who think they have some sort of right to be told everything”. See the ScotRail HST thread for a classic example.

Some may be in that category, but it's a sweeping (and rather rude) generalisation to state that every non-railway-employee who reads or posts on these threads is that.

 

[Monty]

Have you heard about the 2 in Eastleigh that are having AC work done which will remove the need for a crew brake test and will ultimately remove the passenger egress ‘risk’?

I know there are some units being worked on but I'm not sure what the timetable for that is since it's been pushed back until after they are re-introduced to service.

The planned traction upgrade was always going to remove the need for the brake test, though I don't think it will completely remove the risk with the passenger doors entirely, they are being modded to reduce the risk of your local door opening when then train is arriving/leaving a station but they have been modified as about as much as they can so I've been told. So the risk won't go away completely.

 

[Rail Blues]

Some may be in that category, but it's a sweeping (and rather rude) generalisation to state that every non-railway-employee who reads or posts on these threads is that.

Agreed.

I find ignoring this particular individual 's posts is often the best course of events as they rarely post anything that isn't condescending or downright needlessly rude in tone.

 

[43096]

Agreed.

I find ignoring this particular individual 's posts is often the best course of events as they rarely post anything that isn't condescending or downright needlessly rude in tone.

Maybe you should practice what you preach as you keep saying this, but evidently keep reading what I post!

 

[theironroad]

Ok, the nuclear question.....

It seems that the whole project has already well exceeded its budget, with the article in modern railways suggesting that it could have been cheaper to buy new.

It seems, just as things starts to move forward another issue pops up. Considering the retractioning programme hasn't even started and will no doubt encounter more unexpected issues and snags than had been budgeted for, the question is:

At what point do SWR walk away, First take the financial hit and concede defeat and the 442 are all sent to scrap before throwing more money at the project. Yes, there will be a shortage of 18x5 car which will need to be overcome and some major PR flack to take from the Pompey line commuters, but when is enough enough?

 

[Mikey C]

Ok, the nuclear question.....

It seems that the whole project has already well exceeded its budget, with the article in modern railways suggesting that it could have been cheaper to buy new.

It seems, just as things starts to move forward another issue pops up. Considering the retractioning programme hasn't even started and will no doubt encounter more unexpected issues and snags than had been budgeted for, the question is:

At what point do SWR walk away, First take the financial hit and concede defeat and the 442 are all sent to scrap before throwing more money at the project. Yes, there will be a shortage of 18x5 car which will need to be overcome and some major PR flack to take from the Pompey line commuters, but when is enough enough?

In such a circumstance, how would Stagecoach react seeing that one of the promises from the company who took the franchise off them had been junked...

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Ok, the nuclear question.....

It seems that the whole project has already well exceeded its budget, with the article in modern railways suggesting that it could have been cheaper to buy new.

It seems, just as things starts to move forward another issue pops up. Considering the retractioning programme hasn't even started and will no doubt encounter more unexpected issues and snags than had been budgeted for, the question is:

At what point do SWR walk away, First take the financial hit and concede defeat and the 442 are all sent to scrap before throwing more money at the project. Yes, there will be a shortage of 18x5 car which will need to be overcome and some major PR flack to take from the Pompey line commuters, but when is enough enough?

Considering SWR are already having to nab units off other sets for the “6-short 442” scheme; if all of them are cancelled, it’d be very very difficult for them to run a proper service.

 

[DelW]

In such a circumstance, how would Stagecoach react seeing that one of the promises from the company who took the franchise off them had been junked...

And it's on top of the other promises that SWR hasn't met:

• fully revised timetable - OK, SWR may have a get-out-of-jail card here after the GTR timetable collapse last year, but by the second anniversary of SWR's takeover we will still have the SWT timetable plus a few tweaks
• new suburban fleet - not late as yet (I think) but the omens aren't good
• refurbished and reliveried Desiro fleet - should have been finished by now, instead we have just over 20% refurbished according to Goldfish62's list, and those to a variety of spec's. Very few units seem to have been completely finished both inside and out as yet.

So if SWR were to back out of the 442 project as well, their credibility would take another major hit, as well as likely trashing the Portsmouth line reliability figures which have already deteriorated over the SWR era.

 

[molecrochip]

Ok, the nuclear question.....

It seems that the whole project has already well exceeded its budget, with the article in modern railways suggesting that it could have been cheaper to buy new.

It seems, just as things starts to move forward another issue pops up. Considering the retractioning programme hasn't even started and will no doubt encounter more unexpected issues and snags than had been budgeted for, the question is:

At what point do SWR walk away, First take the financial hit and concede defeat and the 442 are all sent to scrap before throwing more money at the project. Yes, there will be a shortage of 18x5 car which will need to be overcome and some major PR flack to take from the Pompey line commuters, but when is enough enough?

This all depends. If the retractioning contract could be renegotiated to either cancel it or curtail it then there may be cost saved here. The MR suggestion is likely to be based on the full value of contracts rather than spent so far. The problem is that if equipment has already been built and cant go elsewhere the chance of mitigating this contract will be low.

Again, even with unfinished units, its likely to the cost is past the point of no return for materials, let alone commitments made to the staff undertaking the work.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ok, the nuclear question.....

It seems that the whole project has already well exceeded its budget, with the article in modern railways suggesting that it could have been cheaper to buy new.

It seems, just as things starts to move forward another issue pops up. Considering the retractioning programme hasn't even started and will no doubt encounter more unexpected issues and snags than had been budgeted for, the question is...

Also discussed earlier in this thread when the same story (quoting BBC South’s Paul Clifton) appeared in “Rail”. See posts around #3063 etc...

 

[Goldfish62]

In such a circumstance, how would Stagecoach react seeing that one of the promises from the company who took the franchise off them had been junked...

Maybe the same as the other bidders who Stagecoach outbid to win VTEC and subsequently screw it up.

 

[JonathanH]

Has any steel-bodied rolling stock ever been through a comprehensive overhaul and not been subject to a lot of unforeseen corrosion repairs?

At what point do SWR walk away, First take the financial hit and concede defeat and the 442 are all sent to scrap before throwing more money at the project. Yes, there will be a shortage of 18x5 car which will need to be overcome and some major PR flack to take from the Pompey line commuters, but when is enough enough?

Doesn't that depend on the availability of something else?

Only 442s can be put in service quickly (although that seems debatable) but there is other stock available in due course that could be amended to replace the 442s after a short period of service. I guess it depends on whether 442s in the current state can run reliably - the key point seemed to be changing the traction package and that doesn't seem to be happening - and whether the money can be better spent on:
a) refitting some 450s with 2+2 seating and backfilling 10-458 in place of 8-450 on some Alton / Basingstoke services as 701s arrive
b) fitting 350/2 with a new interior and 750v pick up / transformer to increase the 4-car Desiro fleet
c) something else.

I assume that most Portsmouth line commuters who are in the "no450" camp are more desperate for 2+2 seating than are desperate for unreliable end door stock with poor dwell times. How quickly do 350/2s become available? Could SWR just hold out?

 

[Goldfish62]

We have to remember in all this that at one stage the 460 conversion into 458/5s looked to be a complete basket case and rumours were flying around that the project was in serious trouble.

 

[pigs bay]

The problems with the 442's might not have even arisen, if stagecoach SWT had kept them and Bournemouth depot were left looking after them. Instead of thinking about profits, how about a new novelty, "thinking about the customer" because when they were removed from their proper route, passengers were not happy with SWT. Bournemouth Depot knew just how to treat them and what they needed to keep running and reliably.

 

[Bigfoot]

We have to remember in all this that at one stage the 460 conversion into 458/5s looked to be a complete basket case and rumours were flying around that the project was in serious trouble.

To be fair here, the 458/460 project was hugely delayed and fraught with major issues. Similar to this...

 

[theironroad]

Interesting responses. I do think they'll plough on regardless.

I'm not quite sure the rationale for introducing the partly refurbed 442 and then having to withdraw them again for retractioning,but at this stage with the delays maybe doing all the work together (or at least all work before reintroducing each unit) maybe the way to go.

Suppose, swr can take comfort from Crossrail though..........

 

[Helvellyn]

Only 442s can be put in service quickly (although that seems debatable) but there is other stock available in due course that could be amended to replace the 442s after a short period of service. I guess it depends on whether 442s in the current state can run reliably - the key point seemed to be changing the traction package and that doesn't seem to be happening - and whether the money can be better spent on:
a) refitting some 450s with 2+2 seating and backfilling 10-458 in place of 8-450 on some Alton / Basingstoke services as 701s arrive
b) fitting 350/2 with a new interior and 750v pick up / transformer to increase the 4-car Desiro fleet

If they really had to junk the 442s reducing 458501-458530 back to four cars might be an option. You would have 10 12-car units fitted with ASDO that could operate the diagrams intended for the 9 10-car 442s. I am sure Porterbrook would give SWR a good deal! But I doubt there is a break clause in the 442 contract with Angel.

 

[theironroad]

Has any steel-bodied rolling stock ever been through a comprehensive overhaul and not been subject to a lot of unforeseen corrosion repairs?



Doesn't that depend on the availability of something else?

Only 442s can be put in service quickly (although that seems debatable) but there is other stock available in due course that could be amended to replace the 442s after a short period of service. I guess it depends on whether 442s in the current state can run reliably - the key point seemed to be changing the traction package and that doesn't seem to be happening - and whether the money can be better spent on:
a) refitting some 450s with 2+2 seating and backfilling 10-458 in place of 8-450 on some Alton / Basingstoke services as 701s arrive
b) fitting 350/2 with a new interior and 750v pick up / transformer to increase the 4-car Desiro fleet
c) something else.

I assume that most Portsmouth line commuters who are in the "no450" camp are more desperate for 2+2 seating than are desperate for unreliable end door stock with poor dwell times. How quickly do 350/2s become available? Could SWR just hold out?

I reckon as long as they get normal 2+2 seating, they'd not care what the actual stock is. It was all about the cramped 3+2 and the seat profile that sent the say no to 450 group into apoplexy

 

[Monty]

Latest e-mail I have gotten on the issue is there will be a 10 car set available for guards training from next Monday and SWR are aiming for a May 19th Introduction to service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon as long as they get normal 2+2 seating, they'd not care what the actual stock is. It was all about the cramped 3+2 and the seat profile that sent the say no to 450 group into apoplexy

Yeah, as I've said before 12-car Class 350/1 sets would be ideal.

 

[DennisM]

Looks like the testing has progressed further toward London, spotted a 10 car 442 sat in platform 4 at Woking just before 2330 on Friday night, looking at RTT it arrived from Bournemouth via Havant 5Q11 and changed ends and returned as 5Q12

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Q39500/2019/04/05/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Q39501/2019/04/05/advanced

 

[RichSwitch]

Interesting (or not) thought. Would 350s be able to run with 444s and 450s as TC sets? For example, 444 + 350 or 450 + 350 + 450? I’m not an engineer so don’t know if/how the motors on the 444/450 would cope with lugging a 4TC around.

 

[pompeyfan]

Technically they could yes, but Siemens probably wouldn’t like it as the traction motors would be overworked. There has been cases of a unit hauling a dead unit but probably not advisable, especially on the gradients on the direct.

 

[K.o.R]

Aren't these trains meant to be modular designs? I can't see it being a huge job to put the shoegear (back) on the 350s, certainly less than the opposite (fitting a 444/450 with AC gear).