Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[theironroad]

Please understand that 99% of passengers really do not care what the livery is , it could be solid black and most people wouldn't care.

The interiors are just fine, 2+2 seating, wider aisle and clean and refreshed. Again, majority are looking to get form a to b not a romantic trip on the Cally sleeper.

The performance so far isn't wildly different to the norm , though I can envisage some issues when short platforms are a more regular issue.

Sounds like some are willing for failure here.

 

[theironroad]

Couldn’t agree more with what RichSwitch has mentioned. I’m doubtful as to wether SWR will get any decent performance out of them especially on the Portsmouth Direct. The livery seems to have been beaten onto these units, I’m pretty sure GX livery was a lot smoother however I’m not a fan of the plain grey it looks unfinished.

How long can SWR sustain the 2 drivers per workings ?

Some question why there are 2 drivers per working anyway (the route restrictions aren't particularly onerous) in passenger service as not required for ECS,. Doubt the 2 drivers requirement will last much longer.

 

[pompeyfan]

Please understand that 99% of passengers really do not care what the livery is , it could be solid black and most people wouldn't care.

The interiors are just fine, 2+2 seating, wider aisle and clean and refreshed. Again, majority are looking to get form a to b not a romantic trip on the Cally sleeper.

The performance so far isn't wildly different to the norm , though I can envisage some issues when short platforms are a more regular issue.

Sounds like some are willing for failure here.

Dwell times are quite a bit higher than desiro stock which will become more apparent on the PDL up services in my opinion.

 

[hexagon789]

Dwell times are quite a bit higher than desiro stock which will become more apparent on the PDL up services in my opinion.

Presumably SWR knew that would be the case though? So could timetable accordingly.

 

[pompeyfan]

Presumably SWR knew that would be the case though? So could timetable accordingly.

Not necessarily, they’re timed as a 100mph EMU, so they’re timed to the same acceleration, braking and dwell times as a 444/450. They’ve also promised to reduce dwell times to reduce journey times on the PDL, whilst adding in extra calls at Godalming.

Even with a confident crew and good signals it’s apparently hard to keep to their current times.

I notice 9B88 was involved in a signalling problem again this morning. Maybe there’s some truth that the DC motors are interfering with the signalling.

 

[hexagon789]

Not necessarily, they’re timed as a 100mph EMU, so they’re timed to the same acceleration, braking and dwell times as a 444/450. They’ve also promised to reduce dwell times to reduce journey times on the PDL, whilst adding in extra calls at Godalming.

Even with a confident crew and good signals it’s apparently hard to keep to their current times.

I notice 9B88 was involved in a signalling problem again this morning. Maybe there’s some truth that the DC motors are interfering with the signalling.

Perhaps the re-tractioning would improve things? 442s are said to be quite weak at higher speeds and I imagine the way power is applied to start off doesn't give the nappies the of starts compared to a 444/450.

Have the signals been changed since 442s were last used?

 

[DelW]

Even with a confident crew and good signals it’s apparently hard to keep to their current times.

Admittedly my experience is anecdotal and nearly all off-peak, but unless there is poor adhesion on the banks, I often find that trains are waiting departure time for a minute or more at stations between Havant and Woking.

I'm quite often late into Waterloo, but that time is generally lost from about Surbiton or Raynes Park inwards.

 

[pompeyfan]

Admittedly my experience is anecdotal and nearly all off-peak, but unless there is poor adhesion on the banks, I often find that trains are waiting departure time for a minute or more at stations between Havant and Woking.

I'm quite often late into Waterloo, but that time is generally lost from about Surbiton or Raynes Park inwards.

You’re correct, there is a few minutes here and there on the direct in a desiro, this comes from pathing issues across Havant and Woking junctions.

I was however referring to their performance on their current diagrams, which I didn’t make particularly clear. We shall see how they perform Monday if they run on the direct.

 

[DelW]

You’re correct, there is a few minutes here and there on the direct in a desiro, this comes from pathing issues across Havant and Woking junctions.

I was however referring to their performance on their current diagrams, which I didn’t make particularly clear. We shall see how they perform Monday if they run on the direct.

Ah, thanks, I misunderstood the point you were making, think I've caught up now

I'll keep an eye on this thread and hope someone in the know can post the times if one does show up on the direct on Monday, and I'll be aiming for a ride on it if so.

 

[Bigfoot]

Maybe there’s some truth that the DC motors are interfering with the signalling.

There is a power restriction notice for the 442s which appears linked to signalling issues.

 

[Goldfish62]

Please understand that 99% of passengers really do not care what the livery is , it could be solid black and most people wouldn't care.

The interiors are just fine, 2+2 seating, wider aisle and clean and refreshed. Again, majority are looking to get form a to b not a romantic trip on the Cally sleeper.

The performance so far isn't wildly different to the norm , though I can envisage some issues when short platforms are a more regular issue.

Sounds like some are willing for failure here.

I agree, and got the same impression.

Seeing the two units pulling out of Waterloo this morning I think they look most striking.

 

[pigs bay]

I agree, and got the same impression.

Seeing the two units pulling out of Waterloo this morning I think they look most striking.

I also agree with you. If they don't like the 442's well lets have them back on the Weymouth/Poole services and let the PDL keep the blue 450's with some 444's put into the mix

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I also agree with you. If they don't like the 442's well lets have them back on the Weymouth/Poole services and let the PDL keep the blue 450's with some 444's put into the mix

It’s PDL or nowhere for the 442s, even if you got all 24 units working again that’s not enough for today’s Bournemouth line service (it’s 2tph Weymouth since the 442s last worked the route and there’s far more shoulder peak 10 car workings, there’s hardly any single unit Bournemouth fast services anymore). The current Bournemouth line 2tph fast service requires 25 units; with splitting and joining at Bournemouth a common fleet is needed hence 444s staying on this route.

 

[Peter C]

Personally, I just think that it is amazing that they are keeping these older units going. SWR or Gatwick Express could have easily scrapped them, but no! They saw how passengers liked them and they kept them going.
I have relatives who live along the PDL and when I go down to theirs we always go to London as it's a short journey. The possibility of getting one of these old units on this journey, even though it is short, makes me happy. I like old Southern Region EMUs if you didn't guess.

-Peter

 

[43096]

Personally, I just think that it is amazing that they are keeping these older units going. SWR or Gatwick Express could have easily scrapped them, but no! They saw how passengers liked them and they kept them going.

Not up to SWR or GatEx to scrap them - that's a decision for Angel.

 

[Peter C]

Not up to SWR or GatEx to scrap them - that's a decision for Angel.

Oh OK. Thanks, I'm not too good with rolling stock owners.

-Peter

 

[samuelmorris]

I also agree with you. If they don't like the 442's well lets have them back on the Weymouth/Poole services and let the PDL keep the blue 450's with some 444's put into the mix

The only reason they're back at all is the pressure from the Portsmouth line users not to have trains with 2+3 seating, so to do that undermines the whole process.

 

[theironroad]

The only reason they're back at all is the pressure from the Portsmouth line users not to have trains with 2+3 seating, so to do that undermines the whole process.

Let's not forget even under pre-desiros times, it was a mix between some 442s on the fast services and slam door with 3+2 and a damn site dirtier stock on other services.

Post 442 and introduction of desiros, more of the pdl services became 450 with 3+2 which is agree isn't great on a Portsmouth hbr to Waterloo fast service.

Even if 442 were only on the fast services on the Weymouth line ,the issue still exists that 442s can't run as a 10 car west of Poole in normal service due to electrical supply issues and have to be split at Southampton or Bournemouth and then running 5 cars imports a greater risk of unit failure.

 

[pompeyfan]

You’d have thought 30 odd years of inconvenience would have made it worth while to do the upgrades needed to the electrical supply and allow 10 car running, although granted 10 cars west of Bournemouth would be ridiculous on a not particularly busy route. I can’t think of many times a 5.444 wouldn’t be sufficient Wey - BMH.

 

[coppercapped]

It's a mess. I know that much. Nationalisation seems to be the way forward there, but that's a subject for another day.


-Peter

No, presuming you are referring to rolling stock procurement and ownership, it's actually very simple.

 

[theironroad]

You’d have thought 30 odd years of inconvenience would have made it worth while to do the upgrades needed to the electrical supply and allow 10 car running, although granted 10 cars west of Bournemouth would be ridiculous on a not particularly busy route. I can’t think of many times a 5.444 wouldn’t be sufficient Wey - BMH.

Well, the Olympics in 2012 was supposed to see doubling of the single lines at moreton and Weymouth and power supply upgrades for the millions of people going to watch some sailing at Portland..... Suppose they saw what a waste of money that would be ...

Agree though, very rare that anything more than a 5 car is needed.

 

[coppercapped]

Sure, I'll concede they're not actually finance companies but these are companies making very healthy profit margins off of their leasing agreements with TOCs and definitely not providing stock at cost.

Companies have to make profits - otherwise they become ex-companies quite quickly. Very few organisations provide a good or service 'at cost' - and if they do it is not in their main line of business.

For your information - so you have an appreciation of the actual numbers rather than a perception of the numbers - Eversholt's figures for 2018 show that it had a gross income of some £375 million. Cost of sales was £186 million leaving a gross profit of £189 million. Various costs such as pensions payments, cost of finance (ROSCOs borrow the money to pay for the trains - they themselves are not banks) alone reached £152 million, write downs, administrative expenses and so on were deducted from the gross profit leaving a net profit of £31 million (down from £37 million for the preceding year).

In view of the value of the assets it manages, way over £2 billion (which translates to borrowings), that seems to me to be a proportional profit - it's 8% of turnover. 'Healthy'? - possibly. 'Excessive'? - no.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You’d have thought 30 odd years of inconvenience would have made it worth while to do the upgrades needed to the electrical supply and allow 10 car running, although granted 10 cars west of Bournemouth would be ridiculous on a not particularly busy route. I can’t think of many times a 5.444 wouldn’t be sufficient Wey - BMH.

Know where you’re going with this but not sure it’s really an inconvenience to divide at Bournemouth, after all that is the purpose of multiple units. In 1967 the business case couldn’t be found to electrify beyond Bournemouth and in 1986 it could only be justified on the cheap; don’t think you could ever build a case to cart fresh air to Weymouth including the cost of additional rolling stock.

Take for example the Victoria to Hastings via Eastbourne trains; the power lets them run beyond Eastbourne to Hastings as big trains and yet they usually divide at Eastbourne running only as single units beyond. Cost savings will always beat a small performance gain of not splitting as it’s just not worth it. Running big trains round interpeak doesn’t actually cost any additional vehicles but if it did it wouldn’t be done.

 

[richa2002]

Why would they provide stock at cost? You seem to just be pedalling the usual, wearisome anti-ROSCO rhetoric that actually doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

I think the insinuation is that the railways shouldn't be run for profit but as a public service.

 

[pompeyfan]

In actual 442 news, it appears the unit sat down at Woking for 15 minutes today. I believe that’s the first TIN since their introduction

 

[theironroad]

In actual 442 news, it appears the unit sat down at Woking for 15 minutes today. I believe that’s the first TIN since their introduction

Do you happen to know what the actual fault was?

 

[pompeyfan]

Do you happen to know what the actual fault was?

Afraid not but I’ll keep my ears to the ground.

 

[Thumper1127]

Does anyone have any idea if the second diagram, involving PDL work, is starting on Monday?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Does anyone have any idea if the second diagram, involving PDL work, is starting on Monday?

It’s likely to be towards the latter part of the week.

Expected diagrams will be:

ECS BM-SOA
06.51 SOA-WAT
08.30 WAT-PMH
10.45 PMH-WAT
13.00 WAT-PMH
15.15 PMH-WAT
17.30 WAT-PMH
ECS PMH-FR

and

ECS FR-PMH
06.15 PMH-WAT
Clapham Yard
18.48 WAT-POO
ECS POO-BM

This allows the 10 car 444 currently working the 06.15 PMH-WAT to go on the 06.28 SOA-WAT as diagrammed.

The 3rd 10 car diagram will be a Fratton to Fratton working.

 

[Thumper1127]

It’s likely to be towards the latter part of the week.

Expected diagrams will be:

ECS BM-SOA
06.51 SOA-WAT
08.30 WAT-PMH
10.45 PMH-WAT
13.00 WAT-PMH
15.15 PMH-WAT
17.30 WAT-PMH
ECS PMH-FR

and

ECS FR-PMH
06.15 PMH-WAT
Clapham Yard
18.48 WAT-POO
ECS POO-BM

The 3rd 10 car diagram will be a Fratton to Fratton working.

Thanks for that.