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Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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BRX

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It is frustrating how SWR are trying to brush the problem under the carpet as quietly as possible - most commuters are unaware the 442s are even meant to be being introduced!

Seems sensible, compare to what's happened on the Caledonian Sleeper where they did a big launch, made everyone aware of the new stock, and then introduced in a rush without sorting out the problems first!
 
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mchd2000

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Seems sensible, compare to what's happened on the Caledonian Sleeper where they did a big launch, made everyone aware of the new stock, and then introduced in a rush without sorting out the problems first!
Yes, it would have been sensible to have a phased introduction of services too should SWR have decided to also have a phased introduction of the units. Running 6 diagrams worth of additional services in the May timetable (2/3 of the 442s would be required for this) is not exactly phasing in the trains...
 

Goldfish62

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Seems sensible, compare to what's happened on the Caledonian Sleeper where they did a big launch, made everyone aware of the new stock, and then introduced in a rush without sorting out the problems first!
But then Northern introduced nine new trains all at once seemingly without problems a few weeks ago.

SWR introduced the 707s efficiently and without fuss, yet the 442s are a complete contrast.
 

pompeyfan

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Are 442s all cleared for the new line yet? Seems strange that 9B95 didn’t run Cobham, Guildford, Havant, Southampton last night and instead they just chucked the units back into Clapham.
 

samuelmorris

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But then Northern introduced nine new trains all at once seemingly without problems a few weeks ago.

SWR introduced the 707s efficiently and without fuss, yet the 442s are a complete contrast.
The 442s aren't directly replacing anything though. Admittedly, neither were the 707s, but in the case of the 331s and 195s, they need to pull their fingers out with that introduction in order to cascade out the units that are imminently being withdrawn. This isn't a highly publicised 'new trains' introduction, it's just the addition of a small number of extra units, so presumably they're in no hurry.
 

Monty

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But then Northern introduced nine new trains all at once seemingly without problems a few weeks ago.

SWR introduced the 707s efficiently and without fuss, yet the 442s are a complete contrast.

This is not true at all, the 707s were plagued with reliability, quality control and other technical problems and were introduced nearly a year late. I trained a lot of the guards on these units and there were a host of issues that needed to be sorted.
 
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Goldfish62

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This is not true at all, the 707s were plagued with reliability, quality control and other technical problems and were introduced nearly a year late. I trained a lot of the guards on these units and there were a host of issues that needed to be sorted.
Interesting. I knew they were late, but once they were introduced by SWR rather than SWT what I saw as a passenger was new units coming into service on a regular basis. Now the reliability is by far and away the highest of any recently introduced stock.
 

Goldfish62

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This isn't a highly publicised 'new trains' introduction, it's just the addition of a small number of extra units, so presumably they're in no hurry.
Except of course they're in breach of the franchise agreement deadline for introduction, but then just about everything is with SWR so I don't suppose it matters much...
 

swt_passenger

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Except of course they're in breach of the franchise agreement deadline for introduction, but then just about everything is with SWR so I don't suppose it matters much...
We surely have to assume that some (all?) deadlines have been renegotiated with DfT? I don't think the online version of the franchise agreement will necessarily be amended every time something gets delayed?
 

43096

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We surely have to assume that some (all?) deadlines have been renegotiated with DfT? I don't think the online version of the franchise agreement will necessarily be amended every time something gets delayed?
Which is kind of irrelevant. They’ve made promises to the paying punters (as part of all the PR drive when they took over), and they’ve not just failed to deliver, they’ve failed by an absolute mile on virtually everything of significance.
 

johnpeter3

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But then Northern introduced nine new trains all at once seemingly without problems a few weeks ago.

SWR introduced the 707s efficiently and without fuss, yet the 442s are a complete contrast.

The Northern 195s are struggling a bit with door issues and brake issues it seems - so these are not without hiccups too. One seems to have been stuck at Piccadilly or Oxford Road this morning for 30-40mins...
 

HamworthyGoods

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Which is kind of irrelevant. They’ve made promises to the paying punters (as part of all the PR drive when they took over), and they’ve not just failed to deliver, they’ve failed by an absolute mile on virtually everything of significance.

This is happening across all TOCs however at the moment, I don’t think SWR is any better or worse than any others. The introduction of new trains and timetables for example on Greater Anglia is way beyond any deadline. Cross Country, GWR and Scotrail HSTs etc.

Most TOCs are seeing some form of ‘change’ at the moment, GTR for example has been considerably renegotiated.
 

samuelmorris

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This is happening across all TOCs however at the moment, I don’t think SWR is any better or worse than any others. The introduction of new trains and timetables for example on Greater Anglia is way beyond any deadline. Cross Country, GWR and Scotrail HSTs etc.

Most TOCs are seeing some form of ‘change’ at the moment, GTR for example has been considerably renegotiated.
As far as I'm aware, for various reasons whether technical, staff training, infrastructure or whatever, all new train fleets (refurbished or new build) in the country for the last few years, and indeed for the next few years to come are between 6 and 30 months late, typically around 12. I believe the GWR 800s/802s are the only ones to be more 'on time' than that, with the 230s, 769s and of course Crossrail sitting at the back of the class. The rest (Mk5/Mk5A/LNER 80x/TPE 802/195/331/700/701/707/710/711/720/730/745/755/777 and whatever else I may have missed) are somewhere in the middle. Right now, the 442s are barely 6 months behind in terms of utilisation. How far behind the traction package is I'm not sure.
 

Goldfish62

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The Northern 195s are struggling a bit with door issues and brake issues it seems - so these are not without hiccups too. One seems to have been stuck at Piccadilly or Oxford Road this morning for 30-40mins...
Oh for sure, but what new rolling stock has ever been trouble-free?
 

cjmillsnun

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Interesting. I knew they were late, but once they were introduced by SWR rather than SWT what I saw as a passenger was new units coming into service on a regular basis. Now the reliability is by far and away the highest of any recently introduced stock.
To be fair SWT ironed out the bugs.
 

samuelmorris

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SWT/SWR no difference with the 707s as the project team remained unchanged. Change in franchise has very little or no impact on a project like that which is underway.
I think the point being made though was that the hard work was done before SWR took over. As far as I know the units were intended to see more than just one cursory run under SWT's tenure, so they were still ultimately late.
 

cjmillsnun

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I think the point being made though was that the hard work was done before SWR took over. As far as I know the units were intended to see more than just one cursory run under SWT's tenure, so they were still ultimately late.

Correct. The post I quoted said SWR seemed to introduce them smoothly after SWT had gone, my point was that the bugs were ironed out during the previous franchise. Of course the team was the same. 99% of the employees are still the same as everyone except the very top were TUPE'd over.
 

Goldfish62

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Correct. The post I quoted said SWR seemed to introduce them smoothly after SWT had gone, my point was that the bugs were ironed out during the previous franchise. Of course the team was the same. 99% of the employees are still the same as everyone except the very top were TUPE'd over.
I wasn't suggesting any different. The point I was trying to make, obviously somewhat pitifully, was that SWR have had experience of introducing new stock before the 442s (which, for the avoidance of doubt, I know are not new!).
 

Thumper1127

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Do you recon we’ll still see the second 442 diagram this week or is next Monday now looking likely?

My guess is not this week. RTT is showing the 0628 Parkway to Waterloo as being a 9B tomorrow. When the second diagram starts this is meant to revert to a 444 so would revert back to a 1B. Could still change though?
 

Thumper1127

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Does anyone know if a second diagram will start this week? For tomorrow RTT again shows the 0628 Parkway to Waterloo as a 442 tomorrow, indicating just the one diagram.
 

pompeyfan

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Guess which service received another change of aspect at W148 signal this morning....
 

HamworthyGoods

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Does anyone know if a second diagram will start this week? For tomorrow RTT again shows the 0628 Parkway to Waterloo as a 442 tomorrow, indicating just the one diagram.
Still awaiting the outstanding issues with NR to be resolved sadly.
 

Goldfish62

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Given how long we have been waiting for NR to fix a host of other issues on the SWD we could be waiting for quite some time..
Presumably NR's attitude is that it's SWR's problem and therefore not a priority.
 

hwl

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Will even more work need to be done when the new traction equipment is fitted?
 

theironroad

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Guess which service received another change of aspect at W148 signal this morning....

I wonder if the same leading unit has been involved in each COA.

I can envisage the 442 being withdawn from peak services services unless NR and fleet can solve the electrical interference issues.

Headways are already extremely tight London bound in the am peak, it's just not sustainable to have a train sit down for 5-10 mins while the issue is processed between driver and signaller essentially blocking the Up Fast.
 

Railengineer

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Gosh this thread has been going for ages....I remember saying early on that the best thing for 442's would be to scrap them. 130 pages of comments later I still think the same. With all the grief and hassle it would have been easier to do what stagecoach wanted to do and bring in new trains.
In addition to the appalling service SWR offer up to passengers every day, who is paying for this class 442 debacle, the ROSCO, TOC or UK taxpayer?
 
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