Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[hwl]

Did they know it was undeliverable when they tendered? I must say I've had nothing but problems with SWR each time I've used them of late, and they've been things within their control, too. Each franchisee seems to bring a lower level of practical railway operating experience than the last.

DfT somewhat culpable in not knowing the power supply wasn't good enough and not asking NR. First did what DfT was asking for, Stagecoach didn't as they knew it wasn't possible and bid with what was.

 

[Wivenswold]

Ditching them is not an option. Even if there was a fleet of oven-ready units you're looking at 6 months to get them into service. They could add to the Aventra order but that will be 3 years.

No doubt someone in the press will point to the 30+ Aventras collecting dust at Old Oak Common and suggest using them.

 

[swt_passenger]

DfT somewhat culpable in not knowing the power supply wasn't good enough and not asking NR. First did what DfT was asking for, Stagecoach didn't as they knew it wasn't possible and bid with what was.

It would be interesting to know how the power supply upgrade is progressing though. There’s new kit visible in a lot of locations, (assuming they aren’t empty shacks!), but I don’t think there’s ever been a detailed list available of what’s being done, and where.

Perhaps NR will end up finishing it just in time for the severely delayed extra stock after all, by a flook...

 

[theironroad]

Id imagine it's not going to get much better now.

First group will be more interested and keen to make sure that start if the west coast partnership in WCML goes smoothly in December and I bet the eyes will focus in that rather than the pesky SWR.

Everything seems to take years. Uniform took 18+ months, intranet went live 10 days ago, 2 years after taking over.

 

[JonathanH]

Ditching them is not an option. Even if there was a fleet of oven-ready units you're looking at 6 months to get them into service. They could add to the Aventra order but that will be 3 years.

350/2s converted to DC have always seemed the sensible option for additional SWR mainline stock since it was announced they would be replaced by 730s. However, I suspect that their release from the current area of operation is going backwards along with other Aventra fleets.

I'm not sure I've ever really understood where the 450s released from Portsmouth line services go. There can't be that many 8-car trains that still need to be made up to 12 coaches in the peak.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

350/2s converted to DC have always seemed the sensible option for additional SWR mainline stock since it was announced they would be replaced by 730s. However, I suspect that their release from the current area of operation is going backwards along with other Aventra fleets.

I'm not sure I've ever really understood where the 450s released from Portsmouth line services go. There can't be that many 8-car trains that still need to be made up to 12 coaches in the peak.

There’s quite a number of additional peak workings on both the mainline and Windsor side which use the displaced 450s along with some strengthening.

 

[spark001uk]

Looks like 2419 (assuming that's what it is) arrived ok at Bournemouth trsmd (5Q86).
I see some STP have gone in the system for 5Q19 to Fratton tomorrow morning, then another run to Bournemouth and back (5Q30/31), then I guess the 5Q99/98 London and back in the evening.
Don't quote me on it though!

 

[James0804]

Looks like 2419 (assuming that's what it is) arrived ok at Bournemouth trsmd (5Q86).
I see some STP have gone in the system for 5Q19 to Fratton tomorrow morning, then another run to Bournemouth and back (5Q30/31), then I guess the 5Q99/98 London and back in the evening.
Don't quote me on it though!

It sure was, hauled by 47813 with 37800 on the rear initially.

 

[theironroad]

It sure was, hauled by 47813 with 37800 on the rear.

Thanks.

Maybe someone should resurrect that thread from years ago about what to do with the 442s as I'm sure a number of the suggestions included loco hauling them around....

 

[The Ham]

Thanks.

Maybe someone should resurrect that thread from years ago about what to do with the 442s as I'm sure a number of the suggestions included loco hauling them around....

Loco hauled 442's were only mentioned a few times.

I do wonder if there's lines and services (Ascot/Guildford and/or the line thorough Hamble) which could make use of the 707's to free up a few more 450's (IIRC each of the two examples given would only be 3 units each, so not enough but would definitely be better than nothing).

 

[theironroad]

Loco hauled 442's were only mentioned a few times.

I do wonder if there's lines and services (Ascot/Guildford and/or the line thorough Hamble) which could make use of the 707's to free up a few more 450's (IIRC each of the two examples given would only be 3 units each, so not enough but would definitely be better than nothing).

Well you can forget the Netley line unless you want months of cancellations due to driver and guard shortages as they'll all have to undergo traction training. Not so sure what depots are trained in 707s but not all depots that are trained in 707s are also trained on the Ascot/Guildford routes.

 

[43096]

I'd go for them ditching the undeliverable stuff (e.g. stuff needing enhanced power supplies), the initial franchise passenger numbers being off and central London job growth data no longer being a good proxy as DfT will struggle to argue on those.

If they do, expect a legal challenge from Stagecoach as their bid was caveated around the timetable being undeliverable unless power upgrades were done. Typical WorstGroup, sign up anyway and try to negotiate everything out when it goes wrong. Bunch of duplicitous liars that need teaching a lesson and be held to account for what they have promised.

 

[The Ham]

Well you can forget the Netley line unless you want months of cancellations due to driver and guard shortages as they'll all have to undergo traction training. Not so sure what depots are trained in 707s but not all depots that are trained in 707s are also trained on the Ascot/Guildford routes.

I was thinking that you'd develop a plan to try and minimise the risk of cancellation. It could be that it takes months to fully implement over both lines, but if you focused on the Ascot/Guildford services first you could then train other staff up.

You also have to bear in mind that the 442's are currently requiring 2 drivers, with them off the network that gives you a bit more flexibility then you would otherwise have.

You could probably fairly safely bring in 1 unit in a matter of weeks, a few weeks later bring in a second and by October half term (circa 8 weeks) have the whole Ascot/Guildford services run by 707's.

While they are running services use them for staff training for the Netley line. Potentially allowing for a single unit to be replaced on those services mid November, with the full service running with 707's for the start of the New Year.

Each extra unit in service would then be an extra 450 available for other duties.

If it turns out that the 442's problems can be resolved then you just stop the 707 implementation plan. However if it can't be fixed or it's going to take longer than 2 months then you've eased the problems with the 442's not being in service.

Other potential options are 319's or 365 (assuming that you could even make then 3rd rail again), although they are going to take longer to deliver. However due to their higher top speed could be used across more of the network.

That could be phase 2, start planning on their introduction at Christmas with delivery of services starting to be introduced for the May timetable. As by Christmas it should be fairly safe to make a judgement of go/no go on future use of 442's based on if there's a fix and how long such a fix should take.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I was thinking that you'd develop a plan to try and minimise the risk of cancellation. It could be that it takes months to fully implement over both lines, but if you focused on the Ascot/Guildford services first you could then train other staff up.

You also have to bear in mind that the 442's are currently requiring 2 drivers, with them off the network that gives you a bit more flexibility then you would otherwise have.

You could probably fairly safely bring in 1 unit in a matter of weeks, a few weeks later bring in a second and by October half term (circa 8 weeks) have the whole Ascot/Guildford services run by 707's.

While they are running services use them for staff training for the Netley line. Potentially allowing for a single unit to be replaced on those services mid November, with the full service running with 707's for the start of the New Year.

Each extra unit in service would then be an extra 450 available for other duties.

If it turns out that the 442's problems can be resolved then you just stop the 707 implementation plan. However if it can't be fixed or it's going to take longer than 2 months then you've eased the problems with the 442's not being in service.

Other potential options are 319's or 365 (assuming that you could even make then 3rd rail again), although they are going to take longer to deliver. However due to their higher top speed could be used across more of the network.

That could be phase 2, start planning on their introduction at Christmas with delivery of services starting to be introduced for the May timetable. As by Christmas it should be fairly safe to make a judgement of go/no go on future use of 442's based on if there's a fix and how long such a fix should take.

Where are these 707s coming from (ie what is replacing them, we already know the 701s are massively behind schedule)

 

[pompeyfan]

707s on the Netley wouldn’t actually be a bad fit. I’m sure the M/s2 acceleration is higher than a 450, and the reduction in dwell times would be noticeable. Toilets would be a bonus though, and a promise not to go DCO/DOO during the rest of the franchise would be expected.

 

[Antman]

SWR site saying they’re all temporarily withdrawn due to the line side equipment interference issues. Looks like a new message...

 

[Goldfish62]

Where are these 707s coming from (ie what is replacing them, we already know the 701s are massively behind schedule)

Especially as the order of displacement of unit classes is under review. It may very well be that the 707s are not displaced from the Windsor lines until 2021.

 

[hwl]

Especially as the order of displacement of unit classes is under review. It may very well be that the 707s are not displaced from the Windsor lines until 2021.

Agreed - the original 701 roll out plan was somewhat operationally illogical from a passenger point of view in that SWML stoppers weren't all increased to 10car first by starting with pulling circa half the 455 fleet first, so despite the delays it look like the improvements on SWML stopper capacity won't be too delayed starting with 10 car replacing 10 car rather than 8 initially was always a bit silly.

Hence a few 455s would probably be available first (hasn't the 455 utilisation already dropped since the 707 were fully introduced?)

 

[DennisM]

Loco hauled 442's were only mentioned a few times.

I do wonder if there's lines and services (Ascot/Guildford and/or the line thorough Hamble) which could make use of the 707's to free up a few more 450's (IIRC each of the two examples given would only be 3 units each, so not enough but would definitely be better than nothing).

Prior to the introduction of the additional 442 diagrams a few weeks back there were rumours that 456s would be removed from 10 car formations to return to operating as 4 cars on the Ascot-Guildford line, freeing up 450 stock to fill the gaps in the mainline. Not sure how this would work with the trains turning back in the Farnham reception road and lack of gangway doors on a 456.

 

[VEP3417]

It sure was, hauled by 47813 with 37800 on the rear initially.

would have liked to see that, sounded quite interesting, rtt just said emu rather than diesel hauled, there was something from bournemouth depot to eastleigh which was diesel hauled but got cancelled apparently

guess the q5... are still running as normal as my friend wanted to see one running but saw the news that they where stopping them

 

[Goldfish62]

Prior to the introduction of the additional 442 diagrams a few weeks back there were rumours that 456s would be removed from 10 car formations to return to operating as 4 cars on the Ascot-Guildford line, freeing up 450 stock to fill the gaps in the mainline. Not sure how this would work with the trains turning back in the Farnham reception road and lack of gangway doors on a 456.

The Ascot to Aldershot service wouldn't have this issue, only Guilford to Farnham.

 

[dctraindriver]

Prior to the introduction of the additional 442 diagrams a few weeks back there were rumours that 456s would be removed from 10 car formations to return to operating as 4 cars on the Ascot-Guildford line, freeing up 450 stock to fill the gaps in the mainline. Not sure how this would work with the trains turning back in the Farnham reception road and lack of gangway doors on a 456.

Rumours also that NR said no to 456 going back to Ascot due to them not liking the gradients.....

 

[Bigfoot]

Rumours also that NR said no to 456 going back to Ascot due to them not liking the gradients.....

Gradients plus they have speed restrictions through alot of platforms. And they're terrible to spend hours at a time in.

 

[dctraindriver]

Gradients plus they have speed restrictions through alot of platforms. And they're terrible to spend hours at a time in.

No speed restriction as far as I know, only P2 Ascot that will effect a 455 to Reading....

 

[hooverboy]

It would be interesting to know how the power supply upgrade is progressing though. There’s new kit visible in a lot of locations, (assuming they aren’t empty shacks!), but I don’t think there’s ever been a detailed list available of what’s being done, and where.

Perhaps NR will end up finishing it just in time for the severely delayed extra stock after all, by a flook...

and what is happening with the old kit?

I would have thought doing a refurb and sending island line some 750v capable line gear would be a reasonable thing to do.

 

[swt_passenger]

and what is happening with the old kit?

I would have thought doing a refurb and sending island line some 750v capable line gear would be a reasonable thing to do.

Nothing happens to the “older” equipment as far as I can see, the extra kit just adds more power in parallel and the existing equipment stays. Passing through St Denys for example, there are at least 3 generations of DC supply equipment within about a hundred yards.

 

[hwl]

Nothing happens to the “older” equipment as far as I can see, the extra kit just adds more power in parallel and the existing equipment stays. Passing through St Denys for example, there are at least 3 generations of DC supply equipment within about a hundred yards.

Exactly with AC it is often replace though. DC transformer and substation equipment is very different in that it is often easy to add to unlike AC.

 

[swt_passenger]

Exactly with AC it is often replace though. DC transformer and substation equipment is very different in that it is often easy to add to unlike AC.

Yes, it does seem that in principle this is an advantage of DC, IIRC the last big general upgrade for the Desiros just added a couple of extra equipment cabins at many locations, it was rare to see anything being dismantled and removed...

 

[RealTrains07]

Ditching them is not an option. Even if there was a fleet of oven-ready units you're looking at 6 months to get them into service. They could add to the Aventra order but that will be 3 years.

No doubt someone in the press will point to the 30+ Aventras collecting dust at Old Oak Common and suggest using them.

Its a shame the 350/2s arnt an option
As i’ve heard from other threads that retrofitting 3rd rail shoes isn’t a massively expensive job compared to other fleets

 

[Bigfoot]

No speed restriction as far as I know, only P2 Ascot that will effect a 455 to Reading....

Camberley and Aldershot aswell. Not terrible, but not helpful either.