Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[Energy]

If they do, expect a legal challenge from Stagecoach as their bid was caveated around the timetable being undeliverable unless power upgrades were done. Typical WorstGroup, sign up anyway and try to negotiate everything out when it goes wrong. Bunch of duplicitous liars that need teaching a lesson and be held to account for what they have promised.

Ahh yes FirstGroup, they seem to have a policy of 'everything is fine until it isnt'.

 

[TEW]

Hence a few 455s would probably be available first (hasn't the 455 utilisation already dropped since the 707 were fully introduced?)

Yes, although utilisation has been up since May.

 

[spark001uk]

... No doubt someone in the press will point to the 30+ Aventras collecting dust at Old Oak Common and suggest using them.

Even though they're AC only.

 

[TrainTube]

The actual announcement

That's bad reducing the 1702 Waterloo to Guildford, that service is usually 8 cars and is rammed with people, theres no way that they can run it with 4 cars without it being delayed even more than it normally is!

 

[samuelmorris]

Even though they're AC only.

but, much like the 350/2s also being suggested, were built with the idea of dual-voltage in mind - the Crossrail extension mooted in the Southeast would require dual voltage operation.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's bad reducing the 1702 Waterloo to Guildford, that service is usually 8 cars and is rammed with people, theres no way that they can run it with 4 cars without it being delayed even more than it normally is!

It’s a booked 12.450 since May, so 8 is already shortened.

 

[spark001uk]

I don't know if it's linked to the 442 suspension, but I've just seen a pair of 455s at Reading, and I thought that was usually a last resort.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know if it's linked to the 442 suspension, but I've just seen a pair of 455s at Reading, and I thought that was usually a last resort.

It will almost certainly be linked, it was also done back in May to release an 8.450 to another route.

 

[Goldfish62]

It will almost certainly be linked, it was also done back in May to release an 8.450 to another route.

Yes, believe it is linked to the non appearance of the expected three pairs of 442s in May. Operates Mon-Fri only, from about 0830, last departure from Waterloo is the 1720.

 

[Thumper1127]

Does anyone have any update on the re-tractioned units which went to Bournemouth the other day? I keep looking at RTT for any signs of testing runs but have seen nothing so far.

 

[Don Steedy]

Does anyone have any update on the re-tractioned units which went to Bournemouth the other day? I keep looking at RTT for any signs of testing runs but have seen nothing so far.

Will be weeks or months before it makes an appearance under its own power. Hasn’t even been powered up on auxiliaries yet

 

[spark001uk]

I'm assuming these retractioned ones will involve some extra training?

 

[philthetube]

If they do, expect a legal challenge from Stagecoach as their bid was caveated around the timetable being undeliverable unless power upgrades were done. Typical WorstGroup, sign up anyway and try to negotiate everything out when it goes wrong. Bunch of duplicitous liars that need teaching a lesson and be held to account for what they have promised.

You can't blame first group for offering what they were told to offer

Running a taxi business many years ago we had to bid annually for School Contracts, we knew that the contractrs as specified would not work as we had been doing them previously, how ever, had we bid as they had to be run then we would not have got them. We got them and for the first week many children were late or failed to get to school at all, then the council came back and sorted it out, doing what we knew needed to be done.

Exactly the same with First, the Government specified what they wanted and first offered it, stagecoach should have done the same, the customer is always right, even if they are wrong

 

[43096]

You can't blame first group for offering what they were told to offer

Running a taxi business many years ago we had to bid annually for School Contracts, we knew that the contractrs as specified would not work as we had been doing them previously, how ever, had we bid as they had to be run then we would not have got them. We got them and for the first week many children were late or failed to get to school at all, then the council came back and sorted it out, doing what we knew needed to be done.

Exactly the same with First, the Government specified what they wanted and first offered it, stagecoach should have done the same, the customer is always right, even if they are wrong

Rubbish way of running a business, though. DfT ought to be asking themselves why the incumbent operator - who had run the franchise since the start - are saying it can't be delivered, rather than going blindly on. Just underlines the chronic incompetence of DfT. Likewise your example shows much the same with the council. What do DfT and the council have in common? Public sector. The hiding place of the weak, useless and lazy who aren't good enough to get a job in the real world.

 

[The Ham]

Rubbish way of running a business, though. DfT ought to be asking themselves why the incumbent operator - who had run the franchise since the start - are saying it can't be delivered, rather than going blindly on. Just underlines the chronic incompetence of DfT. Likewise your example shows much the same with the council. What do DfT and the council have in common? Public sector. The hiding place of the weak, useless and lazy who aren't good enough to get a job in the real world.

Whilst I agree that public sector is more likely to have people who aren't good at their job, however that's not always the case there are some very good people too. Likewise the private sector isn't immune to having people who aren't any good, it's just that they are more likely to be hiding in larger organisations.

 

[The Ham]

I once worked on a development where the council suggested extending a bus route to serve it. Which is a reasonable suggestion in the right circumstances. However this was far from the right circumstances, add it was a large site and would have been a long and winding route compared to the road route.

As such we came up with a solution which extended a route from the far side of town, went past the Hospital and was much more direct. The local bus company liked it so much that they helped by producing bus maids and timetables for us to use in our planning application for free! Personally I think they could see how much of a disaster the first option would be, whilst the latter would be sustainable and they would l output be able to run it on a commercial basis, quite possibly from nearly day one (due to the link between the far side of town and the hospital).

Sometimes people get ideas in their heads and run with it, now the idea may not be terrible in the right situation, however in this situation it wasn't the right thing to do.

What SWT/SWR needs isn't tweets to services it needs some serious infrastructure investment (probably about 10 years ago and a larger nunnery if 444's and 450's when they were ordered). Things like Crossrail 2, Woking junction, Basingstoke junction, Southern Approach to Heathrow, third rail to OHLE conversation, etc. It's been treated as the cash cow of the industry, when with more investment it could have generated even more income.

Such decisions least to the solutions like those currently resulting in failure. Including the user of the 442's and the lack of power available on the network.

 

[spark001uk]

Strange one this week, well today at least. They''ve canned all the 9Pxx, and replaced with 1Pxx, then they've canned those as well, and replaced them with identical 1Pxx as VSTP, not sure why? No timing differences that I can see, so can't be that.

 

[Thumper1127]

All very quiet for the last few days. Any rumours, gossip?

 

[Bigfoot]

Perhaps wait for the truth...

All very quiet for the last few days. Any rumours, gossip?

 

[Lockwood]

Gossip and wild speculation are more fun!

 

[bb21]

Where are these 707s coming from (ie what is replacing them, we already know the 701s are massively behind schedule)

707s on the Netley wouldn’t actually be a bad fit. I’m sure the M/s2 acceleration is higher than a 450, and the reduction in dwell times would be noticeable. Toilets would be a bonus though, and a promise not to go DCO/DOO during the rest of the franchise would be expected.

Especially as the order of displacement of unit classes is under review. It may very well be that the 707s are not displaced from the Windsor lines until 2021.

As some of you guys will have known by now, some 707s will be released to go on the Sheppertons from December (8 units all day if all converted), so Netley is a total non-starter. It's a plan that's been brewing for a while given the piss poor performance of the Sheppertons and the short-turnarounds at both ends.

707s are most needed across the intensively operated suburban side to utilise their better acceleration and faster loading times, so sending them away to provincial areas is not going to happen.

 

[Ethano92]

As some of you guys will have known by now, some 707s will be released to go on the Sheppertons from December (8 units all day if all converted), so Netley is a total non-starter. It's a plan that's been brewing for a while given the piss poor performance of the Sheppertons and the short-turnarounds at both ends.

707s are most needed across the intensively operated suburban side to utilise their better acceleration and faster loading times, so sending them away to provincial areas is not going to happen.

Excuse my ignorance but what are they being released from and as a result of what? I mean they will be a welcome addition on my line but I thought they were already fully utilised primarily on the Windsor side. Will the 455/6s currently used be put on other suburban services?

 

[bb21]

Excuse my ignorance but what are they being released from and as a result of what? I mean they will be a welcome addition on my line but I thought they were already fully utilised primarily on the Windsor side. Will the 455/6s currently used be put on other suburban services?

Some the details are still being finalised, but it is almost certain 455/6s will be appearing more on the Windsor side. There is nothing else as the 458s are already fully used too.

 

[SWT_USER]

Some the details are still being finalised, but it is almost certain 455/6s will be appearing more on the Windsor side. There is nothing else as the 458s are already fully used too.

So a reduction in capacity on the Windsor lines then, given most trains are 10 coaches now and 455+455+456 can't run on the Windsor side due to the short platforms.

 

[TEW]

There are 3 Kingston Rounder diagrams that are booked 10-707 which could swap with 3 10-car 455/6 diagrams from the Shepperton line I imagine. There's then 1 more pair of 707s to pinch from other diagrams. Windsor is the easiest target, as the any of the Hounslow diagrams which involve Weybridge are a non starter for 8-455. There might be a peak only diagram suitable to swap for 8-455 though.

 

[bb21]

Yes but details are still being finalised. Will need to include some clever shuffling around though.

Any progress on 442s may also release some 450s which can also help.

 

[theironroad]

As some of you guys will have known by now, some 707s will be released to go on the Sheppertons from December (8 units all day if all converted), so Netley is a total non-starter. It's a plan that's been brewing for a while given the piss poor performance of the Sheppertons and the short-turnarounds at both ends.

707s are most needed across the intensively operated suburban side to utilise their better acceleration and faster loading times, so sending them away to provincial areas is not going to happen.

What conversion is that?

 

[swt_passenger]

What conversion is that?

Change of normally booked stock to 707, I think is being meant. It’s to do with avoiding interworking between different routes at the Waterloo end.

 

[theironroad]

Change of normally booked stock to 707, I think is being meant. It’s to do with avoiding interworking between different routes at the Waterloo end.

Ok, thanks. Was thinking there was some technical conversion that needed to be done before they could be used on Sheppy which confused me a tad.

 

[pompeyfan]

Today’s ‘The Railway centre’ picture of the day shows 442422 being top and tailed by 47s on route to Eastleigh Arlington for AC work