Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[infobleep]

Proberbly not until timetable change.

With a reduced timetable, I assume there would be capacity for staff to have refresher training before they return.

 

[pompeyfan]

Keep an eye out for 5Q40, I’ve got a feeling it might run this week. DC units.

 

[pompeyfan]

It appears a new path is in the system in the Poole/Brockenhurst area. Keep an eye out for 5Q40, I’ve got a feeling it might run this week. DC units.

 

[spark001uk]

Keep an eye out for 5Q40, I’ve got a feeling it might run this week. DC units.

It ran today. Anyone know any more about it?

 

[pompeyfan]

It ran today. Anyone know any more about it?

led to believe its crew handling refreshers

 

[Nym]

led to believe its crew handling refreshers

One does have to wonder why you'd refresh your crews on something which is going to have a complete change to the traction system, braking system, auxiliary supplies and cab desk.

 

[theironroad]

One does have to wonder why you'd refresh your crews on something which is going to have a complete change to the traction system, braking system, auxiliary supplies and cab desk.

For drivers it's because if they have lost their current DC competence, the AC conversion course will need to be longer.

A few drivers may already have lost competence, but many more will do so without a refresher.

 

[pompeyfan]

As TIR says, it’s to prevent drivers needing a new full course, rather than just a brief 2 day conversion course.

 

[Nym]

I'd have thought it would be more than a 'quick' conversion course changing from a dual twin pipe / EP brake system to a "Westcode" system that isn't actually westcode, but it looks like it's westcode and completely different traction behaviour.

 

[365 Networker]

but it looks like it's westcode and completely different traction behaviour.

Is that just a standard 3 step brake, similar to the 455s?

 

[Nym]

Is that just a standard 3 step brake, similar to the 455s?

I can't recall if it's implemented as three or four step, but it uses smart valves so won't "Feel" like the 3 step on a 455, because the rate enforcement of smart valves is very different to the rate valve on an actual 7 step valve system.

Unless KB has tweaked the software of the valves and controller to make it behave differently, who knows. (Other than KB and maybe Gemini / KBRS)

 

[365 Networker]

I can't recall if it's implemented as three or four step, but it uses smart valves so won't "Feel" like the 3 step on a 455, because the rate enforcement of smart valves is very different to the rate valve on an actual 7 step valve system.

Ok, thanks for the info.

 

[hapt1n]

Class 442 panel contract awarded

UK: South Western Railway has awarded DB ESG a turnkey contract for the design, approval, supply, installation and testing of 36 drivers' desk panels for 18 Class 442 EMUs. The panels are required for the re-tractioning of the units, which will involve considerable alterations to the in-cab ...

www.railwaygazette.com

This has only been announced today, makes you wonder if the news is slow or its going to add further delay to the reintroduction. Didn't I read that a couple of units have already been converted to AC, you'd think the desk update would have to be done at the same time

 

[spark001uk]

I had no idea a new desk was required in addition to everything else, the bill must be soaring!
Does make me wonder if it would have been cheaper to just overhaul the existing braking system and traction gear. It was all fit for purpose when it worked before. Seems to me they're ploughing far too much money into a class that surely doesn't have bags of life left in it? Just my opinion, happy to be corrected.

 

[CBlue]

I had no idea a new desk was required in addition to everything else, the bill must be soaring!
Does make me wonder if it would have been cheaper to just overhaul the existing braking system and traction gear. It was all fit for purpose when it worked before. Seems to me they're ploughing far too much money into a class that surely doesn't have bags of life left in it? Just my opinion, happy to be corrected.

I thought most of the running gear on the 442's was salvaged from older SR EMU's - it had probably been overhauled at the time the units were built so by now must have been getting very outdated and perhaps as a result not fit for purpose?

 

[Nym]

Class 442 panel contract awarded

UK: South Western Railway has awarded DB ESG a turnkey contract for the design, approval, supply, installation and testing of 36 drivers' desk panels for 18 Class 442 EMUs. The panels are required for the re-tractioning of the units, which will involve considerable alterations to the in-cab ...

www.railwaygazette.com

This has only been announced today, makes you wonder if the news is slow or its going to add further delay to the reintroduction. Didn't I read that a couple of units have already been converted to AC, you'd think the desk update would have to be done at the same time

If anyone wants the full press release, this is available here;

Design and installation of desk panels for South Western Railways

Design and installation of desk panels for South Western Railways

dbesg.deutschebahn.com

Design and installation of desk panels for South Western Railways
DB ESG is pleased to be able to announce that it has signed a contract with South Western Railways
(Derby, 15. July 2020) DB ESG is pleased to be able to announce that it has signed a contract with South Western Railways for the turnkey design, approvals, supply, installation and testing of 36 new desk panels for the 18 Class 442 units operating on the London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour route.

These new panels are required following the re-tractioning of these units, which will result in considerable alterations to the in-cab controls, including the removal of the brake system pressure gauge. The customer decided that these modifications warranted a new modern and clean layout for the driver desks, hence this new order.

DB ESG will be subcontracting the panel construction to the Swiss, family- owned company EAO AG, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of high-quality switches, keyboards, sophisticated control elements, and complete HMI control units. EAO will provide pre-assembled, renewed panels, indicators and switches.

DB ESG have a proven track record in delivering complex fleet modification programmes, including work in vehicle cabs, for example ETCS freight vehicle integration. They will create a prototype to check cab wiring and design Modifications are suitable including evaluation of the design from a human factors’ perspective. Installation will occur at Bournemouth traction and rolling stock maintenance depot.

Neil Drury, Engineering Director at South Western Railway, said, “We are pleased to confirm DB ESG will be taking on the work to design and fit new modern desks in the drivers’ cabs which forms part of our major overhaul to AC traction for our Class 442 fleet.”


Nick Goodhand, Managing Director, DB ESG added: “We look forward to forging new relationships with South Western Railways and EAO AG on this very interesting project.“

 

[Energy]

At what point do they give up with the 442s? New desks will be expensive...

 

[spark001uk]

Huge amount spent on them already. I don't think there's much they haven't replaced on them now!

 

[theironroad]

There was always going to be some changes to the desk as the separate brake handle on the left and power controller on the right were stripped out to be replaced by a combined power/brake controller.

Didn't realize it would mean a whole new desk.

Hopefully they'll use the opportunity to create more than a two legs width recess under the desk.

 

[365 Networker]

Does all of this mean they will loose there distinctive compressor sound then? Would be a shame as it always make me laugh.

 

[Helvellyn]

At this rate the 442s will be the railway equivalent of Trigger's broom!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

At this rate the 442s will be the railway equivalent of Trigger's broom!

A bit like the ex LNER HST trailers on EMR are now needing substantial rebuilding, and yet when the industry chooses to send 30yr old vehicles for scrap (eg Mk4s) the whole what a waste brigade wakes up.

Though of course you can have your feet burnt with new trains too!

 

[Mikey C]

At this rate the 442s will be the railway equivalent of Trigger's broom!

In 20 years time they'll rebody them and the whole process can start again

 

[The Ham]

In 20 years time they'll rebody them and the whole process can start again

Indeed the saintly 442's will ultimately become the spacecraft which allows us to escape the earth.

 

[Western Sunset]

The one thing they don't have is a lamp bracket on the outside. Watched someone try to put a rear lamp on one - after 5 mins they wedged one behind the windscreen with a piece of wood.....

 

[DelW]

I thought most of the running gear on the 442's was salvaged from older SR EMU's - it had probably been overhauled at the time the units were built so by now must have been getting very outdated and perhaps as a result not fit for purpose?

IIRC at least some of the traction equipment was recovered from the 4-REPs which the 442s replaced. They'd been built in the late 60s, so that equipment would now be over 50 years old.

 

[Western Sunset]

Bogies etc were all new, it was just the traction equipment that was from the REPs.

 

[RichSwitch]

As above, I wondered myself if the original budget anticipated the 442s being re-desked. I wonder: 1. how much this is costing? and 2. what happens if while re-desking they discover further structural problems that need addressing?

They are certainly expending an awful lot of time and effort considering the age of these trains. As they say “there is no such thing as a free lunch”. One wonders where the money is from bearing in mind FirstGroup is ‘bleeding out’ and likely to perish. DfT? Angel?

Is it likely that they are being re-desked to stop them needing two people up front?

My experience of travelling on them is that the aircon and ventilation is not particularly good. To meet post-Covid19 concerns that needs improving.

On the compressor... I’m guessing that’s related to the old braking system mainly. It depends on whether it is an integral part in new systems (ie whether it’s included in the new package) in which case the old one is probably redundant.

As an aside on YouTube I found some videos of the same compressor (American videos I think) being fiddled around with and started not on a train.

 

[Nym]

What braking system fitted to UK rolling stock on NR rails doesn't use air?

The compressor will either be replaced or continue to be needed. Not to mention all the other air systems fitted.

 

[Don Steedy]

The DH-25 compressors are staying. No plans to replace them.