Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[GW43125]

A Christmas tree...

In this context...

 

[swt_passenger]

If they could get their hands on the remaining 6, would that be enough for all Waterloo-Portsmouth trains to be 2x442?

Nothing like enough, and it's fairly easy to confirm.

There's a 4 tph base timetable planned on a fairly long route, time wise. With the current timetable it takes over 2 hours Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo, and a typical current cycle of leaving Portsmouth on one trip to leaving on a second is about 4 hours 30 min.

Divide that by 15 mins and you'll need 18 pairs, 36 units, then add on a typical maintenance margin of 10 % and you need about 40 units in your fleet.

The above completely disregards the fact that the stoppers may still have to wait at Haslemere and be overtaken as now - that would only add to requirements.

That's exactly why the 18 trains (9 pairs) - but maybe only 7 pairs available daily, can only cover a proportion of the service, and I predict there will be a majority of Desiros on the day to day service even under First.

I still reckon some of the stoppers will have to be 12.450 to maintain capacity and dwell times for passengers getting on at Guildford and Woking in the peaks.

 

[pompeyfan]

Nothing like enough, and it's fairly easy to confirm.

There's a 4 tph base timetable planned on a fairly long route, time wise. With the current timetable it takes over 2 hours Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo, and a typical current cycle of leaving Portsmouth on one trip to leaving on a second is about 4 hours 30 min.

Divide that by 15 mins and you'll need 18 pairs, 36 units, then add on a typical maintenance margin of 10 % and you need about 40 units in your fleet.

The above completely disregards the fact that the stoppers may still have to wait at Haslemere and be overtaken as now - that would only add to requirements.

That's exactly why the 18 trains (9 pairs) - but maybe only 7 pairs available daily, can only cover a proportion of the service, and I predict there will be a majority of Desiros on the day to day service even under First.

I still reckon some of the stoppers will have to be 12.450 to maintain capacity and dwell times for passengers getting on at Guildford and Woking in the peaks.

The fasts are 93 minutes, but units, based on Saturday diagrams, alternate between stoppers and fasts, so currently run stopper up, fast down, fast up, stopper down. If you were to remove inter-working you would increase units required. Based on current timetable, for example, 07:15 up, 09:30 down, 11:45 up, but first only pledged 2+2 on fasts, so this would only require 16 units, plus a few spares.

 

[swt_passenger]

The fasts are 93 minutes, but units, based on Saturday diagrams, alternate between stoppers and fasts, so currently run stopper up, fast down, fast up, stopper down. If you were to remove inter-working you would increase units required. Based on current timetable, for example, 07:15 up, 09:30 down, 11:45 up, but first only pledged 2+2 on fasts, so this would only require 16 units, plus a few spares.

Trust me to choose a random slow service to follow the up and down timings. :cry: But even then it's still completely impossible for the entire service to be 442 operated, which was the point SpacePhoenix was interested in. I did of course assume he wasn't including all the via Eastleigh services either, in the context of "all Waterloo-Portsmouth trains"...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If they did the sensible thing and looped the Haslemere stopper at Guildford you could take the fast journey time down to ~1h 27, which is where it it used to be.

Still quicker & easier to drive from the Guildford area to the coast than catch the train though.

 

[pompeyfan]

If they did the sensible thing and looped the Haslemere stopper at Guildford you could take the fast journey time down to ~1h 27, which is where it it used to be.

Still quicker & easier to drive from the Guildford area to the coast than catch the train though.

Why don't they do it then, platform capacity at Guildford isn't usually an issue, put the down 2Pxx in P3 at Guildford and it's out the way.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Why don't they do it then, platform capacity at Guildford isn't usually an issue, put the down 2Pxx in P3 at Guildford and it's out the way.

Because isn't usually isn't the same as isn't at all - if basically anything goes wrong on any route between Guildford and, well, anywhere the station can fill up PDQ. Better for service robustness in disruption to do it at Haslemere where trains are to an extent out of the way

 

[pompeyfan]

Because isn't usually isn't the same as isn't at all - if basically anything goes wrong on any route between Guildford and, well, anywhere the station can fill up PDQ. Better for service robustness in disruption to do it at Haslemere where trains are to an extent out of the way

But they're not out the way at all at Haslemere, they're constantly in the way of the fasts or diverted Weymouth services. If the service is up the shoot then trains are going to be delayed regardless.

 

[spark001uk]

But they're not out the way at all at Haslemere, they're constantly in the way of the fasts or diverted Weymouth services. If the service is up the shoot then trains are going to be delayed regardless.

I think godfrey is referring to the loop platform at Haslemere. Which can put one train out of the way.

 

[godfreycomplex]

But they're not out the way at all at Haslemere, they're constantly in the way of the fasts or diverted Weymouth services. If the service is up the shoot then trains are going to be delayed regardless.

Still better than delaying all of those things and the Gatwicks and the New Line and the Ascots and (some days) the Woking-Surbiton stoppers

 

[trainmania100]

Here is my video of today's Class 442 drag from Stewarts Lane to Easbourne CS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1niLvA6pmSo

Does anyone know why a 73 was needed? Can the 442s no longer run under power by Southern?
This was 5Z42 today.

 

[spark001uk]

Here is my video of today's Class 442 drag from Stewarts Lane to Easbourne CS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1niLvA6pmSo

Does anyone know why a 73 was needed? Can the 442s no longer run under power by Southern?
This was 5Z42 today.

Nice vid. You know what I didn't even know SN had a 73.!

I think there could be any number of reasons for it, such as:
Could be they are already de-shoed units that didn't make it up to Ely, but then I would have thought they would stay at SL until able to be taken to Ely for store / taken to Eastleigh for re-shoeing.
Could be one or both of those units are failed.
Could be there was a 73 signed driver available but not a 442 one (unless they all sign 442s, I don't know?).
Could be a lease related requirement maybe? (again don't know much about those things)

 

[RichardKing]

With the layout of the sidings at Eastbourne, 442 402 & 408 would have had to run under their own power at some point during the shunt to move out of the way and allow the 73 to attach to the other 442s (410 & 413, I believe).

 

[Fincra5]

With the layout of the sidings at Eastbourne, 442 402 & 408 would have had to run under their own power at some point during the shunt to move out of the way and allow the 73 to attach to the other 442s (410 & 413, I believe).

Driver refresh required on 73, So it killed to birds with one stone as the unit was required for exams.

 

[Roast Veg]

I don't imagine that 73 has much of a life left with Southern, does it? Beyond work with the 313s and moves such as the one above, there won't be very much purpose for it in the mid future as far as I can see.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't imagine that 73 has much of a life left with Southern, does it? Beyond work with the 313s and moves such as the one above, there won't be very much purpose for it in the mid future as far as I can see.

There's probably a good case for changing the couplings and having one or more rescue locos for the more modern GTR stock - especially when it seems to take about 3 hours to react to a failure in the Thameslink core.

 

[fgwrich]

Driver refresh required on 73, So it killed to birds with one stone as the unit was required for exams.

Exactly what I was thinking and makes perfect sense for it.

There's probably a good case for changing the couplings and having one or more rescue locos for the more modern GTR stock - especially when it seems to take about 3 hours to react to a failure in the Thameslink core.

You'd like to hope so, but we have to remind ourselves that this is Southern / GTR we're talking about.

Southern have had the 73 for a good few years now, it was inherited through the Gatwick Express operation which kept 73202 on at Stewarts Lane for a good few years after the main GX 73 operations finished. It then of course found itself useful again when Southern/Gat Ex took on the 442s, Was repainted into a stylised 'Gat Ex' livery before receiving it's current hybrid Southern / Gat Ex livery a few years ago.

 

[RichardKing]

Driver refresh required on 73, So it killed to birds with one stone as the unit was required for exams.

Ah - makes sense.

 

[spark001uk]

I would imagine the 73 to be best put to use by following the 442 stock to its new operator if and when?

 

[D365]

I would imagine the 73 to be best put to use by following the 442 stock to its new operator if and when?

Doesn't SWT still make use of a Class 73 loco?

Either way the FSW Class 442s will be converted to Dellner couplings I believe.

 

[fgwrich]

Doesn't SWT still make use of a Class 73 loco?

Either way the FSW Class 442s will be converted to Dellner couplings I believe.

They do, but the Bournemouth based 73s aren't SWTs anymore. I'm not sure who owns the two 73s anymore (It used to be the Class 73 locomotive preservation company, then 'Transmart Trains') but these two are only used for the shunting of the 455 vehicles visiting for repaint and overhaul.

Given their near constant thirst for 73s, it wouldn't surprise me if 202 moves across to join the GBRf fleet at some point - It'd probably allow them to convert a /1 to a /9 considering the rather well kept condition 202 is in.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Doesn't SWT still make use of a Class 73 loco?

Either way the FSW Class 442s will be converted to Dellner couplings I believe.

Is there any comfirmation of this? I have my doubts as that would probably require the brakes to be modified.

At the moment they're Westinghouse EP as recovered from the 4REPS, which has near bullet proof reliability. What system do you propose putting in instead and at what cost? It will be expensive enough to convert them to an AC traction package.

 

[cj_1985]

They do, but the Bournemouth based 73s aren't SWTs anymore. I'm not sure who owns the two 73s anymore (It used to be the Class 73 locomotive preservation company, then 'Transmart Trains') but these two are only used for the shunting of the 455 vehicles visiting for repaint and overhaul.

Given their near constant thirst for 73s, it wouldn't surprise me if 202 moves across to join the GBRf fleet at some point - It'd probably allow them to convert a /1 to a /9 considering the rather well kept condition 202 is in.

IIRC SWT lease 1x class 73 (73235) from Porterbrook, and hire 1x from Transmart (73133)

 

[emil]

A few pictures taken at Poole station and sidings today.
Unit 2416 on its way to Bournemouth depot from Ely

Arrived late

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13613/2017/09/05/advanced

 

[spark001uk]

I guess that'll be getting ready for a SWR makeover then, and/or driver training? It'll need its shoegear refitting and an overhaul too I assume, if not retractioning also?

 

[Class455]

Where are the 442's going to get refurbished/retractioned?

 

[Domh245]

Where are the 442's going to get refurbished/retractioned?

It looks likely to be done at several different locations (one doing repainting, one doing interior mods, one doing retractioning, etc) but nothing has been announced yet. We can probably assume that Bournemouth will be doing something however, based on today's move.

 

[swt_passenger]

It looks likely to be done at several different locations (one doing repainting, one doing interior mods, one doing retractioning, etc) but nothing has been announced yet. We can probably assume that Bournemouth will be doing something however, based on today's move.

Since the 455 repaints in the relatively new paint facility finished, Bournemouth is the likely place for the 442 exterior repaint, but I agree the intended work can feasibly be done almost anywhere.

 

[MatthewRead]

Is Vosseloh Kiepe going to be involved in the 442 re-tractioning?

 

[dgl]

Is Vosseloh Kiepe going to be involved in the 442 re-tractioning?

Don't know but in some ways would be sensible as they already have the experience of re-tractioning Mk3 stock with a similar setup of a single power car for the whole unit and their work on the 455's is nearly finished (excluding the fitting of replacement parts to some on them).