class 450 v class 377

[starrymarkb]

all new EMUs are excellent at accelerating if the driver throws it straight in to full power...

personally i prefer the 450s over the 377s, they are brighter and a more pleasant atmosphere, without feeling 'clinical' or intrusive...

however i'm going to play devils advocate and throw the topic another direction, the only over class of train that does similar work on the south coast is the humble 158... now... would joe and jo public prefer a 377 or a 158 on the same route...?

depends - if it's SWT 158/159s then they are very comfortable!

 

[BestWestern]

Most definitely a 158, very good units and far more characterful than any post-privatisation EMU. As already mentioned, if it's an SWT set then double bonus!

 

[pompeyfan]

but what about in terms of what everybody has been commenting on, ride quality, ambiance, air con, reliability, general appearance etc...? is a FGW 158 really a nicer place to be from say Brighton to Southampton then a 377...? i'm not so sure... overall 377s aren't terrible trains, and i think a 158 standing next to one proves that.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I find 158s better for comfort and ambiance certainly, especially SWT ones, but the FGW ones are just fine too. EMUs very generally speaking I find to be smoother than DMUs, so it's not just 377s.

 

[87015]

Depends what 377 to a large extent - a Connex specified one, ie 2+2 throughout is a far superior unit from a passengers view to a Govia specified mixed 2+2/3+2 set, albeit both have been run into the ground in the same fashion.

The 2+2 377s running around clean and refreshed at the moment (it won't last mind) are very good units and remind you what can be done if the will is there.

 

[317666]

Any Sprinter trumps both a 450 and 377 if you ask me.

 

[BestWestern]

but what about in terms of what everybody has been commenting on, ride quality, ambiance, air con, reliability, general appearance etc...? is a FGW 158 really a nicer place to be from say Brighton to Southampton then a 377...? i'm not so sure... overall 377s aren't terrible trains, and i think a 158 standing next to one proves that.

I personally would say that the seats are more comfortable and the layout of the coaches makes the interior a nicer place to be, quieter and less draughty. I'd have to concede that the aircon is at best 50/50 likely to be working well, and the smoothness of ride will of course be inferior due to engine vibration. But I'd still rather a 158 myself. I'd take a 377 over a 150 anytime though!

 

[Pumbaa]

Just ridden a 450 on Waterloo to Windsor line. The initial surge of acceleration up to about 20 mph is excellent. Are they all like that ?

Yes. 350s move like sh*t off a shovel. Wait until the Southern finally gets knitting and then ride the 450 again. Should be quite a difference.

 

[Matt Taylor]

the 450s really don't get the chance to stretch their legs much these days, too many areas of 'power reduction mode' and TSRs etc. From Woking you can just about nudge 100mph through Winchfield.

 

[notadriver]

What is power reduction mode ?

 

[BestWestern]

What is power reduction mode ?

It's a button pressed by the Driver which, I believe, reduces the draw on the traction current supply by the train, thus preventing power outages and suchlike in problem areas. Ever since the end of the Slammers the southern has had problems with new generation units drawing massive amounts of current compared the their predecessors. The same problems caused havoc when the Electrostars first came on stream, I understand there was some urgent power upgrading work carried out.

 

[Tibbs]

450/444s can and do SDO on a daily basis, The problem is you can only either release all the doors or restrict the released doors to a specific unit. An example would be Datchet railway station on the down side, when trains stop there you can fit about 7 coaches of an 8 coach 450 formation. But you are only able open the front 4 coaches, in the future we will be able to open all of the 7.

Thank you so much for this nugget of info. I used to get off at Datchet and could never understand why only the front 4 doors opened. My curiosity has been assuaged!

Having said that, 99% of people who get off at Dachet get off from the front 2 coaches to be near the foot & car park exits anyway!

I rather liked the 450 on that route. I could sleep almost all of the way into Vauxhall/Waterloo with ease. As I got on early I pretty much got the same seat every day. The same girl sat a couple of seats away and had her make up routine down to a fine art. When I got on at Datchet she was just unzipping her bag and she was just putting everything away again as the train rolled into Vauxhall!

 

[notadriver]

It's a button pressed by the Driver which, I believe, reduces the draw on the traction current supply by the train, thus preventing power outages and suchlike in problem areas. Ever since the end of the Slammers the southern has had problems with new generation units drawing massive amounts of current compared the their predecessors. The same problems caused havoc when the Electrostars first came on stream, I understand there was some urgent power upgrading work carried out.

On Electrostars an instruction is given not to exceed notch 2 in certain areas or if in multiple in a certain area.

 

[wintonian]

I rather liked the 450 on that route. I could sleep almost all of the way into Vauxhall/Waterloo with ease. As I got on early I pretty much got the same seat every day. The same girl sat a couple of seats away and had her make up routine down to a fine art. When I got on at Datchet she was just unzipping her bag and she was just putting everything away again as the train rolled into Vauxhall!

I have never understood why that can't be done before leaving home or what the necessity to do it on the train/ bus is. :-?

 

[ert47]

I have never understood why that can't be done before leaving home or what the necessity to do it on the train/ bus is. :-?

Its something to do, plus it saves time if you're in a hurry! - The amount of times I've had to put my socks on on the train

 

[BestWestern]

Its something to do, plus it saves time if you're in a hurry! - The amount of times I've had to put my socks on on the train

I often put my clean pants on in the back cab

(That is a joke).

 

[aspierail]

I would say that a class 450 has a better ride quality and looks smarter then a class 377 but both have uncomfortable seats as they are solid hard.

 

[Rick1984]

Finally been on a 444 (both ways waterloo-portsmouth). Bit more comfort than a 450 plus tables and
'some' power sockets. But bizarrely no luggage racks?! Also noticed the buffet car has it's doors oddly positioned. Incident the buffet (If u can call it that) way was locked both ways. Also got to go on the slow line on way back for first time which was nice.

 

[swt_passenger]

...But bizarrely no luggage racks?! Also noticed the buffet car has it's doors oddly positioned. Incident the buffet (If u can call it that) way was locked both ways.

There are reasonable (ie better than a Voyager!) overhead luggage racks throughout the train though. SWT have said in the past that end of carriage racks could not be provided at the expense of seats, as they are predominantly a London commuter operator.

The buffet is invariably locked as the policy is to use a trolley except on a few specific services when the train is always expected to be too full for a trolley, in which case the service is from the mini-buffet.

 

[wintonian]

There are reasonable (ie better than a Voyager!) overhead luggage racks throughout the train though. SWT have said in the past that end of carriage racks could not be provided at the expense of seats, as they are predominantly a London commuter operator.

The buffet is invariably locked as the policy is to use a trolley except on a few specific services when the train is always expected to be too full for a trolley, in which case the service is from the mini-buffet.

Exactly, there isn't room for luggage racks on a commuter route and on some parts of the SWT network there isn't even room for the original number of seats (450/5).

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Some versions of the 377 have very comfortable 2+2 seating with tables and unobstructed views. The ride quality is bouncy. The 2+3 seating is very uncomfortable and the skirting duct is in the way. You cannot sit straight in a window seat with both feet on the floor.

The 450 Desiros stand out with their better quality of interior finish and smoother ride. The 2+3 seating is as good as 2+3 seating gets. The skirting duct does not get in the way.

 

[TEW]

Unless of course you like a padded seat, in which case the seating isn't as good at 3+2 seating gets. The 3+2 seating in the 458s is much more comfortable in my opinion, seems more roomy as well. 450 seats seem narrower than those in 458s. All 377s have some 2+2 seating available, different units just have differing amounts.

 

[BestWestern]

Exactly, there isn't room for luggage racks on a commuter route and on some parts of the SWT network there isn't even room for the original number of seats (450/5).

This is one of my my big irritations with the 444's. They are a poor compromise, a long distance train with an interior spec based purely around jamming in as many seats as possible. They are on a 'commuter route' yes, however they also serve the popular seaside destinations of Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth. These are holiday destinations and they attract people with luggage, as trains to the seaside have done for generations. Where are you supposed to put it?!

Similarly, where is a parent with a pushchair supposed to board? Folding it up may be a reasonable request on a service which is very busy, but simply not bothering to provide any decent space at all is a poor effort. There is more luggage/buggy space on a two car 158 than you would find in 10 coaches of 444. An empty stowage space can quite happily be filled by standing commuters and will accommodate more pax than the seats fitted instead, so why not provide one?

Aside from that, I maintain that the seating is God awful, again it fails to meet reasonable expectations for a long distance train. Are they wafer thin in order to cram in an extra row or two I wonder?

 

[Seret]

I certainly wouldn't judge all electrostars by the state of some Southern 377s. The 377s are getting old now, and many have the super-hard high density seating that Southern elected to have fitted. About as comfortable as sitting on a wooden crate IMO.

 

[BestWestern]

I certainly wouldn't judge all electrostars by the state of some Southern 377s. The 377s are getting old now, and many have the super-hard high density seating that Southern elected to have fitted. About as comfortable as sitting on a wooden crate IMO.

They are refurbing them. Same seats though.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I certainly wouldn't judge all electrostars by the state of some Southern 377s. The 377s are getting old now, and many have the super-hard high density seating that Southern elected to have fitted. About as comfortable as sitting on a wooden crate IMO.

The profile of those seats is exactly wrong.

 

[317666]

I doubt anyone agrees with me, but being almost 6ft 4in I find the 3+2 Electrostar seating more comfortable than the 2+2 in the outer coaches. For the simple reason that the 2+2 seating just feels really cramped to me, with the armrests too high up and the seat is just completely the wrong shape for my liking. Although mind you, I'm not really a fan of the seats in the middle coaches either, they're just marginally better in my eyes. If you ask me the 450 seats are alright, much better than either of the seats in 377s, and the 444 seats are fine.

The worst Electrostar seats are those fitted to the 379s, which are rock hard and the weird shape of the seat base with a random dip in the middle makes me sit at a weird angle. I usually have backache by the time the train is passing Shelford!

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I often put my clean pants on in the back cab

Shouldn't they go on the roof?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt anyone agrees with me, but being almost 6ft 4in I find the 3+2 Electrostar seating more comfortable than the 2+2 in the outer coaches. For the simple reason that the 2+2 seating just feels really cramped to me, with the armrests too high up and the seat is just completely the wrong shape for my liking. Although mind you, I'm not really a fan of the seats in the middle coaches either, they're just marginally better in my eyes. If you ask me the 450 seats are alright, much better than either of the seats in 377s, and the 444 seats are fine.

The worst Electrostar seats are those fitted to the 379s, which are rock hard and the weird shape of the seat base with a random dip in the middle makes me sit at a weird angle. I usually have backache by the time the train is passing Shelford!

At 6ft 4in you are probably off the range which is catered for. But what is always needed is that the cushion should slope backwards from the front edge at an angle of about 15 degrees, and there should be lumbar support. The early mark 2 seats were right from that point of view but the headrest wings were uncomfortable for people with a long body.

The most comfortable train seats I have ever come across are in the second class compartment of a North London Railway coach built around 1865, running on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway. Deep padding is not necessary if the profile is right.

 

[junglejames]

Not sure i need lumbar support. I just prefer a nice soft padded back as well. Like the original 158 seats! OK, back on topic.......

 

[MK Tom]

Given where I live I often have the choice of 350 vs 377 and the latter usually wins for me. They're simply far more comfortable; Desiro seats are rock-hard and I have to start putting my knees on the seat in front or putting my feet on the heaters after half hour or so. On the 377s I can comfortably make it to Clapham without readjusting my sitting position, especially in the end carriages. I'm using a 350/1 as my basis for comparison - the 2+3 seats on 350/2s and 450s feel one step away from wooden benches.

Curious we've not had much mention of the excessively loud air con on Desiros. People have complained about 377 traction motors which I quite like. It's just a nice high tone... an accelerating 350 sounds like something out of War of the Worlds (1953). But the air con on a Desiro is the loudest I've ever heard. Plus whenever it turns on after a short quiet spell it's usually preceded by 'THUMP!'