Class 455's - Carriage out of use

[Class455]

So yesterday, I had 455 828 on a peak Caterham to Victoria service and I was just about to board the last carriage, when suddenly, the rear DTSO stopped and I saw that the lights were switched off and there was a "Defective door" sign, so I had to make my way to the next carriage which was absolutely packed.

But my questions are, how do they manage to turn off the lights in one carriage but not the whole unit and why would they take an entire carriage out of use? If its for a defective door, can't they just lock that door out of use and passengers can use the next set of doors in the carriage? I have yet to see something like this on an SWT Class 455 (don't know if they even do it) but this is the fifth time now its happened on one of Southern's units and It always seems to be the DTSO that is locked out. Couldn't they have taken the unit out of traffic if an entire carriage could not be used, as they cannot split the unit and leave one carriage in the depot as that will reduce capacity. 42 out of 46 455's are diagrammed in traffic for Southern so one of the three spare units (455 845 out of traffic) could have taken over 828's duties.

 

[sheepy1991]

If a door immediately behind the driver / blunt end is locked out of use (LOOU) due to a fault then the whole carriage should be LOOU. This is to do with evacuation purposes. Also if 2 doors on the same side and same vehicle are LOOU then again the coach would need to be completly closed to passenger use. Many other defects can also cause this such as broken treadplates between coaches to stop a trip/ crush injury and also it can be done due to Police incidents if evidence needs preserving and it is not reasonable or required to lose the complete train and cause a cancellation. To shut the lights off in one vehicle only the train lighting MCB's can be tripped for that vehicle.

You say why was the train not removed from traffic but surely having one coach lost is better than the whole unit/ service? Which is why it is done

 

[JN114]

So yesterday, I had 455 828 on a peak Caterham to Victoria service and I was just about to board the last carriage, when suddenly, the rear DTSO stopped and I saw that the lights were switched off and there was a "Defective door" sign, so I had to make my way to the next carriage which was absolutely packed.

But my questions are, how do they manage to turn off the lights in one carriage but not the whole unit and why would they take an entire carriage out of use? If its for a defective door, can't they just lock that door out of use and passengers can use the next set of doors in the carriage? I have yet to see something like this on an SWT Class 455 (don't know if they even do it) but this is the fifth time now its happened on one of Southern's units and It always seems to be the DTSO that is locked out. Couldn't they have taken the unit out of traffic if an entire carriage could not be used, as they cannot split the unit and leave one carriage in the depot as that will reduce capacity. 42 out of 46 455's are diagrammed in traffic for Southern so one of the three spare units (455 845 out of traffic) could have taken over 828's duties.

42 for 46 doesn't equate 3 spares - they'll likely be stopped for exams or maintenance.

 

[D365]

42 for 46 doesn't equate 3 spares - they'll likely be stopped for exams or maintenance.

Class455 obviously did not include 5845 in the three spares...

 

[JN114]

Class455 obviously did not include 5845 in the three spares...

I was aware 5845 was stopped - what I was saying was just because there are X units for Y diagrams; does not mean (and indeed it's highly unlikely) that the remaining units are spare - whatever that remaining number is.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

455 845 is back in service; it was at Crystal Palace this afternoon on a Beckenham - Victoria service.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If a door immediately behind the driver / blunt end is locked out of use (LOOU) due to a fault then the whole carriage should be LOOU. This is to do with evacuation purposes. Also if 2 doors on the same side and same vehicle are LOOU then again the coach would need to be completly closed to passenger use. Many other defects can also cause this such as broken treadplates between coaches to stop a trip/ crush injury and also it can be done due to Police incidents if evidence needs preserving and it is not reasonable or required to lose the complete train and cause a cancellation. To shut the lights off in one vehicle only the train lighting MCB's can be tripped for that vehicle.

You say why was the train not removed from traffic but surely having one coach lost is better than the whole unit/ service? Which is why it is done

Does that apply to any multiple unit where the driver doesn't have a dedicated external cab door?

 

[Deepgreen]

I have travelled on SWT 455s (several years ago) where a coach has been removed from passenger use owing to the carrying of mail bags in that carriage, with the lights left on but the connecting door locked and the external doors out of use.

 

[ComUtoR]

If a door immediately behind the driver / blunt end is locked out of use (LOOU) due to a fault then the whole carriage should be LOOU. This is to do with evacuation purposes. Also if 2 doors on the same side and same vehicle are LOOU then again the coach would need to be completly closed to passenger use.

The door regs changed recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The door regs changed recently.

Just on 455s?

Seeing a friend off this weekend, I saw a VTEC Mk4 set in service at the Cross with all four doors locked out on one coach (and labelled as such, so it hadn't occurred mid journey, the journey was being started with it like that) on one coach and that coach still in use.

Or does it depend on whether the egress handle overrides a lockout on that stock or not?

 

[ComUtoR]

Just on 455s?

The rulebook was changed.

 

[Class455]

455 845 is back in service; it was at Crystal Palace this afternoon on a Beckenham - Victoria service.

Great to hear she's back!

 

[BestWestern]

The rulebook was changed.

The new changes are aimed, I believe, at units where a door isolation does not impede the operation of emergency egress equipment. That doesn't apply to a 455, where an isolated door is physically bolted shut and cannot be used as a means of escape. So the existing rules should still apply.

 

[CC 72100]

Seeing a friend off this weekend, I saw a VTEC Mk4 set in service at the Cross with all four doors locked out on one coach (and labelled as such, so it hadn't occurred mid journey, the journey was being started with it like that) on one coach and that coach still in use.

According to TW5 June 2014:

You must place the vehicle out of public use and arrange to
transfer passengers to another vehicle, if:
• all doors normally used by the public are defective on one or
both sides of the vehicle (including doors used in an emergency)

This however has changed very recently, and the relevant module for Dec 2016 states:

You must place a vehicle out of public use and arrange to transfer passengers to another vehicle if the following doors are
defective:
• all doors including those only available to the public for use as an
emergency exit on one or both sides of the vehicle and also the
nearest door on the next vehicle
• a door only used as an emergency exit at the leading end of the
first passenger vehicle or the trailing end of the last one.

You must not allow a vehicle to enter or continue in public use
unless your train operator’s control has given permission, and you
have carried out any necessary instructions they have given you if
the following doors are defective:
• all doors including those only available to the public for use as an
emergency exit on one or both sides of the vehicle but the nearest
door on the next vehicle is available for use

So as long as its not an end coach, and the doors on both sets of vestibules adjacent to it (So OK-NO NO-OK) are fine, then you've still got a means of escape in two directions. The theory behind evacuations of vehicles when doors are locked out is based on people being trapped - in this situation, they are no more 'trapped' (ie. they aren't) than if the doors were fine. Obviously when it's an end door you've suddenly only got 1 direction of escape, hence the trapped if the danger is in that direction.

Link: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 7.pdf - page 26 is your relevant bit

 

[tellytype]

Doors being out of use on Southern? Surely not? *smirk*

They do seem to have fundamental issue with doors in general though, as a company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So as long as its not an end coach, and the doors on both sets of vestibules adjacent to it (So OK-NO NO-OK) are fine, then you've still got a means of escape in two directions. The theory behind evacuations of vehicles when doors are locked out is based on people being trapped - in this situation, they are no more 'trapped' (ie. they aren't) than if the doors were fine. Obviously when it's an end door you've suddenly only got 1 direction of escape, hence the trapped if the danger is in that direction.

Link: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 7.pdf - page 26 is your relevant bit

Cheers.

 

[BestWestern]

Doors being out of use on Southern? Surely not? *smirk*

They do seem to have fundamental issue with doors in general though, as a company.

I think it would be fair to say they have many fundamental issues; as a TOC, as a company and as an employer!

 

[tellytype]

I think it would be fair to say they have many fundamental issues; as a TOC, as a company and as an employer!

We need a like button!

 

[tsr]

According to TW5 June 2014:

This however has changed very recently, and the relevant module for Dec 2016 states:

So as long as its not an end coach, and the doors on both sets of vestibules adjacent to it (So OK-NO NO-OK) are fine, then you've still got a means of escape in two directions. The theory behind evacuations of vehicles when doors are locked out is based on people being trapped - in this situation, they are no more 'trapped' (ie. they aren't) than if the doors were fine. Obviously when it's an end door you've suddenly only got 1 direction of escape, hence the trapped if the danger is in that direction.

Link: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 7.pdf - page 26 is your relevant bit

It would appear that local traction training for Southern 455s remains as it was before last December's change.

The general rule on these trains is that you must have at least 4 exit doors available for each coach.

 

[BestWestern]

It would appear that local traction training for Southern 455s remains as it was before last December's change.

The general rule on these trains is that you must have at least 4 exit doors available for each coach.

Four on every coach? So if you have to isolate any one door, the coach comes out of use then? That's a very strict interpretation of the rules indeed! Shouldn't be any issues as long as it isn't the first or last door of the of the train, and not both doors on one side of a coach?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Four on every coach? So if you have to isolate any one door, the coach comes out of use then? That's a very strict interpretation of the rules indeed! Shouldn't be any issues as long as it isn't the first or last door of the of the train, and not both doors on one side of a coach?

I'm *assuming* the one on each end (gangway doors) count.

 

[tsr]

I'm *assuming* the one on each end (gangway doors) count.

They do.

However, saloon <-> cab vestibule doors do not.

BestWestern - hope this clarifies things!

 

[BestWestern]

They do.

However, saloon <-> cab vestibule doors do not.

BestWestern - hope this clarifies things!

Indeed! So then if you had to isolate both of the inner-end bodyside doors (one on either side, obviously), but were able to access the end gangway as normal into the next vehicle, you'd isolate the carriage?

 

[tsr]

Indeed! So then if you had to isolate both of the inner-end bodyside doors (one on either side, obviously), but were able to access the end gangway as normal into the next vehicle, you'd isolate the carriage?

Yep. Both doors out of use on same side of the coach or in the same vestibule = out of use!