Class 465 and 466 set for storage/scrap: possible uses for them in future?

[JonathanH]

Standard product for all 3rd rail South London metro would make demand shifts easier to deal with too….

Where are you going to send the surplus Electrostars?

 

[Meerkat]

Where are you going to send the surplus Electrostars?

Do they do metro?

 

[JonathanH]

Do they do metro?

Yes, Southern 377s work all of the Metro routes which have 10-car trains - ie all of Victoria to Epsom, Dorking & Horsham, Victoria to Sutton via Norbury, Victoria to West Croydon via Crystal Palace, Victoria to London Bridge via Crystal Palace, London Bridge to Epsom, London Bridge to Caterham / Tattenham Corner. (Not all of these service groups are running at present and 8-car formations do a limited number of workings.) Some of these would be ripe for 376s though if external cameras can be fitted for DOO.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes, Southern 377s work all of the Metro routes which have 10-car trains - ie all of Victoria to Epsom, Dorking & Horsham, Victoria to Sutton via Norbury, Victoria to West Croydon via Crystal Palace, Victoria to London Bridge via Crystal Palace, London Bridge to Epsom, London Bridge to Caterham / Tattenham Corner. (Not all of these service groups are running at present and 8-car formations do a limited number of workings.) Some of these would be ripe for 376s though if external cameras can be fitted for DOO.

Can they then replace the Networkers?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed there's just no space for them and no plans for new sidings. Can't see them being used elsewhere in any great numbers so scrappage it is

Why are they building additional sidings at Chart Leacon then?

 

[Class 466]

Realtime Trains - 584I 1059 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Worksop Up Receptions

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The move to Worksop for Thursday is in.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think @Journeyman summed it up quite nicely - a fleet to replace the 455s plus allow cascade of Electrostars which are currently covering suburban services.

Aventra's would look to be a good fit - the successor to the Electrostar, 20m carriage lengths, either as 4 or 8 car units.

What should have happened was the 701's were redirected to SE to eliminate Networkers. SWT had a perfectly adequate fleet plan including 455's with there new traction kit.

 

[brad465]

Realtime Trains - 584I 1059 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Worksop Up Receptions

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The move to Worksop for Thursday is in.

Have the subject units been de-branded in line with stock that's gone off lease before?

What should have happened was the 701's were redirected to SE to eliminate Networkers. SWT had a perfectly adequate fleet plan including 455's with there new traction kit.

That was never going to happen while the SE franchise future was (and maybe still is) up in the air. The 701s were ordered by SWR not long after that franchise began, so a long term commitment was possible; the Govia-run SE franchise though was just receiving extension after extension, often on the order of just 6 months at a time.

 

[Domh245]

What should have happened was the 701's were redirected to SE to eliminate Networkers. SWT had a perfectly adequate fleet plan including 455's with there new traction kit.

3 bodged solutions to providing a 10 car railway (455+456 lashups, the 458/5s, and 707s - including the 455 retraction), none of which were particularly well suited to long term futures at the franchise, strikes me as 'adequate'. Just because the 455s had been retractioned didn't mean they were acceptable for another 10 years (or more) service

Besides, as I understand it SE metro is a mixed 8/10 car railway, so quite how it would have worked with the 10 (/2x5) car 701s I don't know

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

3 bodged solutions to providing a 10 car railway (455+456 lashups, the 458/5s, and 707s - including the 455 retraction), none of which were particularly well suited to long term futures at the franchise, strikes me as 'adequate'. Just because the 455s had been retractioned didn't mean they were acceptable for another 10 years (or more) service

Besides, as I understand it SE metro is a mixed 8/10 car railway, so quite how it would have worked with the 10 (/2x5) car 701s I don't know

SWT didn't seem them as lash ups. Granted 455 won't provide same passenger environment as 701 whenever they get them into use but they had spent the money on all these projects so they should have stuck with them for next 10 years then renewed all the fleet. Instead they now have multi traction fleet and SE is now dumped with another stock type to maintain. All this builds in high base costs to running services in these areas which won't go unnoticed by treasury but because all this new stuff is on contracts they will get rid of the stuff that can be off leased for least financial cost.

What will be interesting is whether GBRs remit extends to sorting a national rolling stock strategy or not.

 

[Class 466]

Have the subject units been de-branded in line with stock that's gone off lease before?

They’ve only got to Gillingham Depot under their own power tonight so I doubt it just yet

 

[ScotGG]

"Indeed there's just no space for them and no plans for new sidings. Can't see them being used elsewhere in any great numbers so scrappage it is"

Why are they building additional sidings at Chart Leacon then?

It's not much use for Networkers or Metro fleet being all the way out in Ashford, and isn't it just a like-for-like depot for Southeastern as Thameslink have taken some of their sidings with no net increase.

So in effect it does absolutely nothing about sidings pressure for suburban routes.

The 707s have just been moved to South Eastern - why move them to Southern and lose a coach? Makes no sense at all.

I think a new build Aventra is more likely for Southern allowing 455s and 313s to be replaced.

It was a comment about what makes sense given prior investment, not what is happening which is a bit of a bodge job as the 707s were going off lease.

Network Rail spent large sums to enable a 12 car running across almost all the Metro network for when new stock arrives, then no sidings for additional stock are built and 10 car trains end up arriving. Platform extensions have been built at numerous stations. I am of course excluding vic routes here.

They may still move in a couple of years - it's a small fleet which doesn't make best use of SE infrastructure.

707s fit Southern routes that are 10-car max - or can be adjusted for 8-car routes with carriage removal though it makes most sense to just stick them on 10-car max routes. Given SE Metro max out at 12 after all the investment in power and platforms, a long term future for trains with a max of 10 cars doesn't make much more sense than them moving to Southern in future.

 

[brad465]

It's not much use for Networkers or Metro fleet being all the way out in Ashford, and isn't it just a like-for-like depot for Southeastern as Thameslink have taken some of their sidings with no net increase.

So in effect it does absolutely nothing about sidings pressure for suburban routes.

376s receive proper maintenance at Ramsgate depot, even though they are stabled more commonly in metro area sidings, so if metro units were going to Ashford I wouldn't say it's completely unusual.

 

[ScotGG]

Besides, as I understand it SE metro is a mixed 8/10 car railway, so quite how it would have worked with the 10 (/2x5) car 701s I don't know

It's almost entirely a 12-car ready railway now but lacks the stock to form 12 car services, which makes 10-car trains a little odd after all the investment.

The process for 12-car started in the early 90s but was cancelled hence the 466s. Fast forward 20 years and network Rail set out to complete the job, with multiple power upgrades and platform extensions. After all that, it's been barely utilised.

376s receive proper maintenance at Ramsgate depot, even though they are stabled more commonly in metro area sidings, so if metro units were going to Ashford I wouldn't say it's completely unusual.

True but heavy maintenance isn't as regular as using it as daily sidings.

It's not ideal as a metro depot and metro really needs expansion closer to home.

 

[Mikey C]

It's slightly bizarre that as well as the 10 car 707s, Southeastern territory (the North Kent route to Rainham) also receives 8 car Thameslink trains.

Can the marginal platforms at Charing Cross cope with 12 car trains with SDO?

 

[D365]

SWT didn't seem them as lash ups. Granted 455 won't provide same passenger environment as 701 whenever they get them into use but they had spent the money on all these projects so they should have stuck with them for next 10 years then renewed all the fleet…

SWT was a completely different franchise to what exists now under SWR. First-MTR won the franchise by bidding for this new set of requirements that was set out.

 

[Milo T.K]

Because replacing 40 year old stock with 30 year old stock possibly isn't the best way forward ?

At some point there is going to need to be a plan to replace the 455s and 313s which Southern has, both of which are at or near life expired. Replacing them with 30 year old stock, which wouldn't be standard is probably more costly and is basically kicking the can down the road. Far better to order a common fleet which would wipe out those and possibly even the 171s if there is a way forward with Uckfield and Marshlink.

Get the 376s and 377s from se and replace the 455, 313 and 171s and pretty much SN would be entirely served by electrostars. It would have been more sensible for that to happen imo so southern can have a more standard fleet

 

[BlythPower]

Realtime Trains - 584I 1059 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Worksop Up Receptions

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The move to Worksop for Thursday is in.

Is there any idea yet of which three units this will be?

 

[Chiltern006]

likely to be units 466033+465246+465236

 

[BlythPower]

likely to be units 466033+465246+465236

Thanks - I don't need to hurriedly book the day off work!

 

[Horizon22]

Why are they building additional sidings at Chart Leacon then?

Southeastern is already chronically short of stock stabling and Thameslink plans have also had something to do with it.

Can the marginal platforms at Charing Cross cope with 12 car trains with SDO?

5&6 are the tricky ones, but its a bit complex as they can take a Electrostar but not a Networker but I think that's due to cab configuration of SDO / the relevant software.

 

[Class 466]

likely to be units 466033+465246+465236

Believe it’s 466024 now instead of 033.

 

[Aictos]

Believe it’s 466024 now instead of 033.

That's correct, 466024 was last seen yesterday on 5G01 paired with 465236/246 from Grove Park Up Carriage Holding Sidings to Gillingham (Kent) Electrical Multiple Unit Depot booked to arrive 21:28 last night.

 

[A0wen]

Get the 376s and 377s from se and replace the 455, 313 and 171s and pretty much SN would be entirely served by electrostars. It would have been more sensible for that to happen imo so southern can have a more standard fleet

And South Eastern who need stock in the meantime do what exactly? You'd be at least 2 years from delivery for an order placed now.

The 465/6s are nearing end of life. And removing the 375s and 376s would take ~ 60 units.

Even allowing for keeping all the 465/6s that leaves a gap.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWT was a completely different franchise to what exists now under SWR. First-MTR won the franchise by bidding for this new set of requirements that was set out.

…and as we know from previous discussions the ITT all but told them they needed a new inner suburban fleet, because the various capacity requirements and dwell times couldn’t be met.

 

[Mikey C]

There are issues with the Networkers, but I'm slightly baffled by the idea that they are time expired and ready for the scrapyard when their diesel cousins are in perfect nick and will continue in service for years. The Chiltern 165s even have very effective aircon fitted

 

[brad465]

There are issues with the Networkers, but I'm slightly baffled by the idea that they are time expired and ready for the scrapyard when their diesel cousins are in perfect nick and will continue in service for years. The Chiltern 165s even have very effective aircon fitted

Not to mention their express cousins which are off lease for plenty of reasons around resilience, but in terms of the reliability of the units shouldn't be life-expired. At the moment we're seeing a weird reverse order withdrawal where the youngest Networker family units have gone first and the oldest, the Turbos, look set to outlive the rest. The 465/466 happen to be going in the middle by the looks of things.

 

[Domh245]

Not to mention their express cousins which are off lease for plenty of reasons around resilience, but in terms of the reliability of the units shouldn't be life-expired. At the moment we're seeing a weird reverse order withdrawal where the youngest Networker family units have gone first and the oldest, the Turbos, look set to outlive the rest. The 465/466 happen to be going in the middle by the looks of things.

The Turbos benefit from the rather severe lack of DMUs, and conversely the other Networkers are suffering as a result of an oversupply of EMUs!

The other point to bear in mind is that any issues with reliability aren't coming from the structure of the trains, but whatever is under the solebar, which is another favourable factor for the Turbos. 6 Cyl diesel + hydraulic converter is a very mature and well supported 'technology' whilst the 'of-their-era' electronics under the EMUs aren't

 

[Roger B]

Believe it’s 466024 now instead of 033.

Thanks for the update class 466. Has this now been confirmed?

 

[Class 466]

Thanks for the update class 466. Has this now been confirmed?

466024, 465236 & 465246 were the ones moved from Grove Park to Gillingham yesterday, 466033 was out in service this morning and is now at Slade Green Depot