Class 465 Ramsgate services 2016

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello all,

Watching a video on YouTube of trains at Ramsgate, filmed in 2016, there was a couple of Class 465's coming in and out of the station, there were no descriptions though so not sure what service this was working. So I looked through the 2016 Carriage Working Notice (CWN) for March and May and there were no booked 465's at Ramsgate.

So I looked on Flickr and found this picture, from the same year, and found that other 465's have gone to Ramsgate even last year, but this one I found from 2016:

465194 : Newington

Southeastern Class 465 unit No. 465194 passes Newington working the 2L24 09:39 Charing Cross to Ramsgate service

www.flickr.com

doesn't make much sense, as it's noted as working the 2L24 09.39 Charing Cross to Ramsgate service.

However, looking again in the 2016 CWN, 2L24 is the 09.39 Charing X - Gillingham, Monday to Sunday. Having a look in the Working Timetable, this is also noted as terminating at Gillingham, even the 2015 and 2017 versions say the same, but the picture is at Newington so clearly well past Gillingham. To back it up there is a picture at Birchington-on-Sea on a 2L26 10.09 from Charing Cross:

Birchington-on-Sea

Having travelled to Birchington (Kent) for a family wedding, I thought it would have been rude not to visit the station. Shortly before heading home on Sunday (4th Sept.), I photographed an eight-coach train arriving at Birchington with the late-running 2L26 1009 Charing Cross - Ramsgate...

www.flickr.com

Again, no reference to this working past Gillingham, but is clearly at the Ramsgate end here, so what were these services that don't appear in the timetables? Is this some very short lived service extension? I know engineering works can cause services to be altered and combined with another service but I can't see how this would be one.

Anyone local may be able to shed a light please?


James.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Possibly the Summer (weekend only? someone else correct me, I can't remember exactly) services to Ramsgate along the Kent Coast, 3 outbound trips from Charing X/Cannon St in the morning and 3 equivalent return evening workings to London Bridge only IIRC. All 465 worked as were Woolwich line stoppers between Dartford and London. Basically crowdbuster services to deal with seaside day-trippers from suburban SE London, hence the "all-stops" approach between London and Dartford. Think they left London Bridge at around quarter past 7, 8 and 9am and took about 3h30 to get to Ramsgate. Return services left Ramsgate early evening and got back to London around 9pm ish IIRC

At some point (I think after the May 2018 timetable change) they swapped to 1BXX headcodes and ran as Cannon St/London Bridge starters exclusively, I believe 1B91/93/95 were the ones used in 2019

(The 2LXX services got cut back from Gillingham to Dartford as part of the May 2018 changes, being taken over by the 9PXX Thameslinks which extended to Rainham as well)

(edit: Routing was London Bridge > Woolwich > Dartford (semi-fasts after here I believe) > Rochester > Faversham > Margate > Ramsgate)

 

[CFRAIL]

It's likely they were seaside specials, these often run throughout the summer, I believe in more recent times from Cannon Street. There's usually a couple of workings per day in each direction.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Oh! Interesting! Quite possibly a weekend thing seeing as the last picture mentioned it was taken on a Sunday.

I'd imagine from Rochester it was pretty much standard calling pattern as any Ramsgate SE service, obviously as seen in first picture was fast through Newington

 

[dodecahedron67]

I'd imagine from Rochester it was pretty much standard calling pattern as any Ramsgate SE service, obviously as seen in first picture was fast through Newington

I believe after Dartford they called at Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne & Faversham before again becoming all stops services through to Ramsgate

 

[brad465]

Oh! Interesting! Quite possibly a weekend thing seeing as the last picture mentioned it was taken on a Sunday.

I'd imagine from Rochester it was pretty much standard calling pattern as any Ramsgate SE service, obviously as seen in first picture was fast through Newington

I believe after Dartford they called at Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne & Faversham before again becoming all stops services through to Ramsgate

The Summer specials have varied over the years, I remember when 365s did them in the early 00s, then they may have not run for many years, before 2013 and 2014 they were a daily CHX-Ramsgate outward working, which was an extension of a Gillingham train, but ran back empty. It's possible 2015-17 saw no service, or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. However since 2018 the service has been pretty standard, with one or two one way trips during weekday mornings, running back empty in time for peak services elsewhere, but on Saturdays, Sundays and the Bank Holiday Monday in August, there were/are 2-3 return workings, separated by an hour each. From memory the following calling patterns applied:

2013-14: Normal Gillingham service calling pattern to Gillingham, then fast to Faversham, Whitstable, Herne Bay, Birchington, Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate.
2018 onwards: All stations from CST-Dartford, then Greenhithe, Gravesend, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whitstable, Herne Bay, Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate. The same calling pattern applied going back to London (note Birchington was skipped)

Also, on the August Bank Holiday last year the services were non-stop between Gillingham and Faversham and vice-versa, which was quite the experience from having got it myself.

On a separate note, apparently last weekend some 465s worked from Herne Bay to Victoria on Saturday, where engineering works cut off Ramsgate depot, so some allocations came from Faversham, where 465s are commonly stabled.

 

[Galvanize]

In 2013 and 14 I recall the Seaside Networker services ran most weekdays during the School Holidays in late July and all of August. They’d be DOO as far as Gillingham where a Guard would get on and work the train through to Ramsgate. Generally the services were anything went as long as it was 465 or 466 stock, sometimes the /0 and /1 sub classes got a chance to stretch their legs beyond the SE Metro area.

In more recent times, IE last Summer, the Summer Saturday Seaside Bucket and Spade Networkers have usually been 465/9s with First Class.

Fast Gillingham to Faversham was quite the run, and it often confused several people getting on at Stations in the Medway Towns wanting Sittingbourne etc, a whole lot would suddenly jump off hearing the Guard’s announcement
“The next stop will be…Faversham!”

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Interesting! Thanks guys, I'd imagine these might appear in a 2016 National Rail Timetable or similar year

Thanks Josh for the guard info, didn't cross my mind as to where DOO or Guard operation would be in place, can imagine they were good runs, I'd imagine some of the Dover 465/9's were as well being express bar Canterbury, something I never done!

 

[eastwestdivide]

Those summer extensions of the ‘62’ Gillingham semi fasts date back to the late 70s at least, with the same pattern of three out in the morning, three back in the evening.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Those summer extensions of the ‘62’ Gillingham semi fasts date back to the late 70s at least, with the same pattern of three out in the morning, three back in the evening.

In the 70's it was an hourly '82' at xx36 from Charing Cross to Ramsgate which ran fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal, Dartford, Gravesend and then everywhere to Ramsgate. It was usually formed of HAP stock. It was the only reason we had first class fares from Woolwich. I'm sure there was no '62' Gillingham semi fast as I only remember an hourly service at Woolwich Arsenal to and from Charing Cross via Blackheath. We had a couple of unusual services. Monday to Friday there was the 0652 Sheerness-on-Sea to Cannon Street, headcode 95, and on a Saturday morning the first 'fast' service to Charing Cross started from Dover and carried headcode 88.

 

[eastwestdivide]

In the 70's it was an hourly '82' at xx36 from Charing Cross to Ramsgate which ran fast from London Bridge to Woolwich Arsenal, Dartford, Gravesend and then everywhere to Ramsgate. It was usually formed of HAP stock. It was the only reason we had first class fares from Woolwich. I'm sure there was no '62' Gillingham semi fast as I only remember an hourly service at Woolwich Arsenal to and from Charing Cross via Blackheath. We had a couple of unusual services. Monday to Friday there was the 0652 Sheerness-on-Sea to Cannon Street, headcode 95, and on a Saturday morning the first 'fast' service to Charing Cross started from Dover and carried headcode 88.

That all changed late 70s (when I started spotting). Two '62' semi-fasts per hour to Gillingham (-05 and -35 from CX). Here's a page from my May 1978 timetable, with the C headnote for the extensions to Ramsgate, showing in fact only two extended services, the 0935 and 1035 from CX, before settling into Gillinghams for the rest of the off-peak repeat panel. Second class only, EPB formations.
Edit for more info: The third service was an 0841 Cannon St-fast to Woolwich then semi-fast to Gillingham.
Saturday shows 3 extended (the 0835, 0935 and 1035 off CX, summer only)
Also, table 212 (Victoria-Ramsgate) shows them as 2nd class only.
There was a timetable revamp again in about 1985(?) when 4-CEPs started working an all-day one per hour extension of the 62 semi-fasts to Ramsgate.

 

[30907]

That all changed late 70s (when I started spotting). Two '62' semi-fasts per hour to Gillingham (-05 and -35 from CX). Here's a page from my May 1978 timetable, with the C headnote for the extensions to Ramsgate, showing in fact only two extended services, the 0935 and 1035 from CX, before settling into Gillinghams for the rest of the off-peak repeat panel.

The change you mention (from the 1959 timetable essentially) followed London Bridge rebuilding (#1!) with he diversion to serve Lewisham, and the Victoria- Kent Coast service being doubled to half-hourly.

Slightly OT because it was main-line stock, there was a long-standing summer one-way Catford Loop-Ramsgate, using stock that was booked ECS to RM depot the rest of the year. Origin varied: Denmark Hill, Elephant, Blackfriars, possibly even Victoria.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Slightly OT because it was main-line stock, there was a long-standing summer one-way Catford Loop-Ramsgate, using stock that was booked ECS to RM depot the rest of the year. Origin varied: Denmark Hill, Elephant, Blackfriars, possibly even Victoria.

Oh yeah, remember that - it had a long non-stop run for part of its journey I think.
Much later edit: from the May 1978 TT, an 0926 Mon-Fri Peckham Rye to Ramsgate (arr 1118). Calling points Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Bromley S, St Mary Cray, Swanley (0958), then non-stop to Whitstable (1045), Herne Bay, Westgate, Margate, Broadstairs, Dumpton Park and Ramsgate. Marked as 2nd class only.

 

[Mikey C]

I remember this service, as for the summer in 1988 I used to travel in once a week from Dartford to London Bridge in the early evening, and used to specifically catch one of the returning coastal trains for the luxury and novelty of taking a 4-CEP, rather than the usual EPB!

 

[nw1]

There was a timetable revamp again in about 1985(?) when 4-CEPs started working an all-day one per hour extension of the 62 semi-fasts to Ramsgate.

I don't recall this at all from 1986 or 1987: at that time it was the half-hourly '62' semi-fast to Gillingham much as in 1978, run using EPBs. It was also the '62' semi-fast to Gillingham in 1981/2 and 1982/3 (source: CWNs) with a few morning seaside specials using HAPs.

In 1986 and 1987 all the main-line services off-peak, except the seaside specials, seemed to originate at Victoria and go via Bromley South.

So I'm guessing this CEP service was a short-lived one, for the 1985 timetable only perhaps? (More generally I am surprised they didn't run one of the main-line stoppers per hour via Dartford longer-term, and terminate one Victoria per hour at Gillingham in lieu of it, as it would have provided a regular all-day link).

 

[eastwestdivide]

The '62' to Ramsgate with 4-CEPs was definitely in the 1985 timetable - see attached, showing the off-peak pattern. I've added a blue asterisk to the '62' services. The corresponding hour's Sole Street stopper was a Holborn Viaduct-Gillingham, those marked as 2nd class only in the timetable.
The other side of the hour, the '62' ended at Gillingham and the Sole Street stopper was Victoria-Dover.
Both that and the '62' Ramsgate were overtaken at Faversham by the fast Victoria to the 'other' destination (Dover/Ramsgate), providing fast connections into the stopper to the coast.
Don't know if the following year's timetable was the same as I moved north from Kent in early 1986 and I don't have any timetable books.

 

[nw1]

The '62' to Ramsgate with 4-CEPs was definitely in the 1985 timetable - see attached, showing the off-peak pattern. I've added a blue asterisk to the '62' services. The corresponding hour's Sole Street stopper was a Holborn Viaduct-Gillingham, those marked as 2nd class only in the timetable.
The other side of the hour, the '62' ended at Gillingham and the Sole Street stopper was Victoria-Dover.
Both that and the '62' Ramsgate were overtaken at Faversham by the fast Victoria to the 'other' destination (Dover/Ramsgate), providing fast connections into the stopper to the coast.
Don't know if the following year's timetable was the same as I moved north from Kent in early 1986 and I don't have any timetable books.
View attachment 110961

Ah right, very interesting thanks. Never knew that pattern existed.

The 1986 timetable was definitely all four mainline services from Victoria. The overtaking-at-Faversham pattern was seen, with a fast Dover and slow Dover flighted out of Victoria one side of the hour and fast Ramsgate and slow Ramsgate the other. The slow was overtaken by the following fast at Faversham.

Strangely the 1982 pattern was very like the 1986 pattern. Thus it looks like they experimented with sending one stopper via Woolwich and Dartford, which in principle seems a good idea (providing regular links on this axis) but it didn't take off as expected. Did that CEP of 1985 also stop at Lewisham and Abbey Wood, like the 'regular' 62? If so, quite a range of stations provided that year with a service with first-class accommodation, when generally all services have been standard only.

I wonder if the Holborn-Sole Street-Gillingham interworked with the '62' on the other side of the hour, i.e. an incoming Holborn at Gillingham would have formed a '62' back to Charing Cross. They'd both have been EPB so presumably that could have happened if the times were right.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't recall this at all from 1986 or 1987: at that time it was the half-hourly '62' semi-fast to Gillingham much as in 1978, run using EPBs. It was also the '62' semi-fast to Gillingham in 1981/2 and 1982/3 (source: CWNs) with a few morning seaside specials using HAPs.

In 1986 and 1987 all the main-line services off-peak, except the seaside specials, seemed to originate at Victoria and go via Bromley South.

So I'm guessing this CEP service was a short-lived one, for the 1985 timetable only perhaps? (More generally I am surprised they didn't run one of the main-line stoppers per hour via Dartford longer-term, and terminate one Victoria per hour at Gillingham in lieu of it, as it would have provided a regular all-day link).

As I said above your comment, I remember regularly taking CEPs from Dartford in the summer of 1988 on the "62" route to Charing Cross, presumably having come from the coast

 

[nw1]

As I said above your comment, I remember regularly taking CEPs from Dartford in the summer of 1988 on the "62" route to Charing Cross, presumably having come from the coast

Though it sounds like you took one of the 'seaside specials', which I was aware of. The services that I was asking about were the regular daytime hourly services from 1985, explained by @eastwestdivide above.

 

[urpert]

I remember this service, as for the summer in 1988 I used to travel in once a week from Dartford to London Bridge in the early evening, and used to specifically catch one of the returning coastal trains for the luxury and novelty of taking a 4-CEP, rather than the usual EPB!

This is interesting because I have a distinct childhood memory of once getting a CEP between Victoria and West Dulwich instead of the normal EPB (we sat in the standard compartment, of course). Would have been autumn 1988. Perhaps it’s related to these special workings?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Did that CEP of 1985 also stop at Lewisham and Abbey Wood, like the 'regular' 62?

Yes.

I wonder if the Holborn-Sole Street-Gillingham interworked with the '62' on the other side of the hour, i.e. an incoming Holborn at Gillingham would have formed a '62' back to Charing Cross. They'd both have been EPB so presumably that could have happened if the times were right.

Not sure. Might try and work it out from that timetable tomorrow. Might even have some spotting notes if I can rummage around.

 

[nw1]

Yes.


Not sure. Might try and work it out from that timetable tomorrow. Might even have some spotting notes if I can rummage around.

OK - thanks.

Another interesting thing about that timetable is how the Holborn Viaduct services were obviously not fast within inner London, as they took 36 minutes to reach Bromley South. Passengers for Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street etc would presumably have got the xx20 from Victoria and made the two-minute connection at Bromley South, as the London departure times of the through services were seriously unbalanced (xx53 Victoria or xx03 Holborn Viaduct). Wonder if that 2-min connection at Bromley South was honoured? (Does Bromley South only have one down platform? I have been through there a few times but I forget).

Perhaps this is the main reason why this timetable did not survive. If they'd have had an xx23 from Victoria to Gillingham instead, with the same stopping pattern as the xx53, maybe the via-Woolwich through services could have survived!

This is interesting because I have a distinct childhood memory of once getting a CEP between Victoria and West Dulwich instead of the normal EPB (we sat in the standard compartment, of course). Would have been autumn 1988. Perhaps it’s related to these special workings?

Looking at CWNs from earlier in the 80s, it does appear that main-line stock frequently did suburban workings just before the evening peak e.g. between 1600 and 1700. The stock would then form a main-line service in the actual peak. Presumably there were operational reasons for this, in that it reduced conflicting moves in the terminals during the peak.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Does Bromley South only have one down platform?

Four tracks there, but arranged up-down-up-down, so changing platforms for the same direction requires a trip over the footbridge.

It's not clear from the timetable if those Holborns swapped and became the opposite hour '62' at Gillingham - one of the turnrounds would be very short indeed. Suspect a trip to the carriage sidings, but I can't be sure.

Worth changing the thread title to "Ramsgate extensions of North Kent via Dartford services" or something like that?

 

[nw1]

Four tracks there, but arranged up-down-up-down, so changing platforms for the same direction requires a trip over the footbridge.

So presumably the two minute 'connection' would not have been made. I do wonder in that case why they didn't just have an xx23 from Victoria to Gillingham? Much simpler and would have provided an even-interval 30 min service from the same London terminal to the local 'Sole Street' stations. That would have been a 'have your cake an eat it' timetable as the Woolwich through service would still have been there.

It's not clear from the timetable if those Holborns swapped and became the opposite hour '62' at Gillingham - one of the turnrounds would be very short indeed. Suspect a trip to the carriage sidings, but I can't be sure.

Worth changing the thread title to "Ramsgate extensions of North Kent via Dartford services" or something like that?

Sounds a good plan.

 

[urpert]

OK - thanks.

Another interesting thing about that timetable is how the Holborn Viaduct services were obviously not fast within inner London, as they took 36 minutes to reach Bromley South. Passengers for Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street etc would presumably have got the xx20 from Victoria and made the two-minute connection at Bromley South, as the London departure times of the through services were seriously unbalanced (xx53 Victoria or xx03 Holborn Viaduct). Wonder if that 2-min connection at Bromley South was honoured? (Does Bromley South only have one down platform? I have been through there a few times but I forget).

Perhaps this is the main reason why this timetable did not survive. If they'd have had an xx23 from Victoria to Gillingham instead, with the same stopping pattern as the xx53, maybe the via-Woolwich through services could have survived!




Looking at CWNs from earlier in the 80s, it does appear that main-line stock frequently did suburban workings just before the evening peak e.g. between 1600 and 1700. The stock would then form a main-line service in the actual peak. Presumably there were operational reasons for this, in that it reduced conflicting moves in the terminals during the peak.

Thanks - I’ve wondered for years if that was a faulty childhood memory. (In my mind it was in Jaffa cake livery which i suppose is perfectly possible.)