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Class 466 refurbishment??

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by brad465, 3 Oct 2018.

  1. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    I know the new Southeastern franchise winner (on eventual handover) will inevitably get rid of all 465s/466s at some point :frown:, but will the 466 fleet get refurbished to comply with 2020 Disability legislation? :idea:

    Of the whole SE Networker fleet they're the only group that I haven't personally seen refurbished in this way, whereas some or all of the denominations of 465s have been to include the necessary Disabled access features.

    I cannot see any of the 190 Networker units (147+43 465/466 respectively) being withdrawn between April 2019 (current handover date) and the end of 2019, when considering the need to order new stock, then build, deliver and test new units. If a shortfall of units results from lack of refurbishment there could be serious problems in 2020, given SE's heavy reliance on all its stock for all classes :rolleyes:
     
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  3. D9009Spotter

    D9009Spotter Member

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    General hunch is they would just operate at a reduced capacity until whatever new stock is sourced. If the incumbent isn't going to put them through the upgrade then I don't see the next one doing so. Sadly I think they'll be joining the majority of the off lease HST & 365 fleets :/
     
  4. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    Could the unrefurbished and non-compliant 466s be used after 2020 if coupled to a refurbished and fully compliant 465?
     
  5. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    No, they need the PRM compliant buttons and handles etc, to run in service post 2020
     
  6. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    Surely a derogation. You cant just stop using them it'd be a huge drop in capacity. 10 car networkers are already packed on some lines.

    And how many 465s still need work doing?
     
  7. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Surely there should be some more slack in the inner fleet, after the 465/9s were returned from operating longer distance routes?
     
  8. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    Nope they were badly needed and even now there are plenty of 8 or 10 car services (serving lines upgraded for 12 car) in the peaks on lines with much new housebuilding along them. 466s are extremely common in the peaks and their removal would be a big, big hit on capacity
     
  9. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    Sorry hadn't noticed the eventual replies - among big hits in capacity that haven't been mentioned 2 units would be lost on the Sheerness Branch, one (or 2?) on the Bromley North branch and currently 1 on the Medway Valley line, where they all lone work. If they were lost they'd be replaced with units larger than the 466s (3/4 car), which would have to come from the other metro/mainline stock and hit their train lengths. 6 car trains are very common out of Victoria in the peaks to Rochester/Sheerness, as are 10 car Tunbridge Wells' trains from CHX, obviously requiring one 466 on each train (I believe all platforms are long enough to Rochester for 8 cars, but presumably extra 465s are not always available for this).

    I don't know many 465s need refurbishment but it's been a while since I've seen a non-refurbished one, so my guess they are at worst almost complete
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2018
  10. 466.networkers

    466.networkers Member

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    New Rochester is a fully 12 car station.

    And the 466s are needed, unless there's some units sitting spare that can cover for them to go to Donny/Ilford to be made compliant ... (hint: 365s)
     
  11. Doomotron

    Doomotron Member

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    And the award for first to mention Class 365s goes to...
     
  12. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    truly, they are the new Class 442

    At least in this case it's somewhere that 365s has a history with
     
  13. westcoaster

    westcoaster Established Member

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    I doubt it will take many man hours to add external hustle alarms and grab poles. If southern are doing the 455's like that, why cant southeastern on the 466's.
     
  14. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    Rochester is 12 yes, but the likes of Farningham Road and Sole Street maybe less, but I can't confirm it's length other than they are at least 8 car. Elephant and Castle is also 8 car for those Blackfriars-Rochester services

    I remember this forum talking about 365s up to 2 years as a Southeastern prospect, and I would certainly approve of them making a return, it's just whether the new franchise owners would be prepared to shoe/re-shoe them up and bring them in (although if SWR can serious on "reviving" the 442s ahead of new rolling stock commitments then nothing can be ruled out) :rolleyes:

    If 365s ever did come back though, and 466s were not refurbished, they could do all 465/9/66 run services down to the Medway towns and then the 465s involved could make help make up the lost 466 stock, but it may not be enough to replace the exact carriage numbers :/

    The 377s arriving did relieve some of them, the Maidstone East line being the primary route for doing so, but 465/9s and 466s still form the backbone of Tunbridge Wells' services, and the fact that some of them get to go to Dover Priory still, as much as I've personally liked the experience, shows their is still no slack. <D
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2018
  15. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Good idea for increasing capacity, external grab poles, though it might be a bit tricky going through tunnels. I'm sure the yoof of SE London would find a way though :E
     
  16. 466.networkers

    466.networkers Member

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    There are 43 x 466s, and 40 x 365s, so there's pretty much double the capacity there.

    And don't forget the increased acceleration and top speed of a 365 which will reduce journey times on the parts of the network where 90/100mph running exists.

    Anyone, this is all logic so will definitely not happen :rolleyes:
     
  17. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    It would be 90mph only on 3rd rail operation, if the early day SE use is anything to go by, but yes still faster than 75mph of 465/66s, and I agree if it was ever going to happen it would have been done by now, as 365s went off-lease a while ago now. :|

    I did think about whether 707s could offset a loss in 466 carriages, but there may have to be some very strategic rolling stock allocations across the network to make that work, as they're 5 and 10 car formations, so would limit where 465s could be released from to make 12 car metro formations more common :rolleyes:
     
  18. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    I thought that a lot of current SWR stock was about to be freed up, perhaps the 455s/456s might be a better bet. Alternatively, if more tractive power is required, could a trailer car be dropped from each of the 707s and then run as 4-car with up to 3 units per train?
     
  19. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    Personally I hope 455s/456s don't make the move, and head for the scrapyard. They've had a long life already and I don't think anyone wants 1982 rolling stock moving. I don't see 707s having their coach count changing, but I agree changing them to 4 or 6 cars each would work, while for the sake of 466 replacement it would help their replacement. Again though some strategic rolling stock allocation would be needed, because 465s and 707s wouldn't be able to mix up.
     
  20. Doomotron

    Doomotron Member

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    Class 442s?

    I am honestly so, so sorry.
     
  21. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    It's all academic anyway as the SWR stock is not due to come off-lease until the end of next year (for the 707s), April 2020 (458s) and December 2020 (455/456). Even if Bombardier hit their targets for SWR Aventra production - unlikely given where they are now with the type - that would leave no time to transfer across and train crews on any stock in time for 01/01/20.
     
  22. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    I've found this .GOV document that appears to talk about 466s in regards to the 2020 legislation, in a template among other rolling stock examples, dating October 2018. I've made bold two lines of particular note, which, if I've read it correctly, suggests they could run after 2020 without refurbishment, with 465 sets, but not on their own.
    If this is true, it would avoid a whole fleet refurbishment, but in cases like the Bromley North and Sheerness branches an alternative will be needed until the whole 465/66 fleet is replaced. :rolleyes:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/756924/angel-class-466-31-october-2018.pdf

     
  23. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    That's what I said two months ago!
     
  24. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    Yes you did, but looking at the response I'll leave to @cactustwirly to respond there.

    It would be interesting if it led to more complex station announcements and/or platform signage, saying PRM should not sit in x part of the train (i.e. where the 466(s) is/are) ;) :idea:
     
  25. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Yes, will they have to ensure that the 466s only stop at certain parts of the platform, and will they get a special stripe on them like the compartment EPBs used to have!
     
  26. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    That's an insult to 1970s Class 313s still working hard and 1940s/1950s undercarriage equipment from the (Southern) 455's. Don't know if any SWR 455's retain any old equipment?
     
  27. zn1

    zn1 Member

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    465/466 are approaching 30 years old, surely the roscos have programmed in their code 1 overhaul or have they had these completed, the required mods could easily be carried out when the vehicles are shelled for repairs
     
  28. zn1

    zn1 Member

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    455s were kitted out with sub motors, MGS and dh25 compressors were they not ??
    313s were built with near nukeproof electronics,
     
  29. cjmillsnun

    cjmillsnun Established Member

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    SWR 455s are all converted to Vossloh Kiepe AC traction equipment (obviously inverted from DC from the third rail)
     
  30. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    Even if 466s do run without refurbishment in formation with 465s, there is still the problem of the branches where they lone work still. Currently 4 units per weekday do so (1 Bromley North, 2 Sheerness, 1 Medway Valley), and if come 2020 they're not compatible with legislation, other rolling stock of longer lengths, such as 3/4 car 375s and/or 4 car 465s would have to take their place. This is therefore a net loss of space from metro/mainline formations on some trains, which might be relatively small, but in a franchise where rolling stock is stretched to the limit in the peaks, it could make a big difference
     
    Last edited: 10 Dec 2018
  31. Doomotron

    Doomotron Member

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    508s or 313s on the branches? They've run there before.

    I'll get my coat.
     

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