Class 47 Acceleration and Braking

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Ghawk2005

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Hi All

Does anyone have data for Class 47 acceleration and braking details for say loco + 7 or 8 mk2 coaches etc? I’d be very interested to learn the real life info if anyone has access to it?

thanks
Gary
 
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Railperf

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Hi All

Does anyone have data for Class 47 acceleration and braking details for say loco + 7 or 8 mk2 coaches etc? I’d be very interested to learn the real life info if anyone has access to it?

thanks
Gary
We have dozens of articles covering Class 47 performance in older editions of our quarterly magazine Milepost which can be downloaded (subscription required) from www.railperf.org.uk.

We have a comprehensive search facility here... (membership required) https://rpdf.org.uk/rpdf/welcome.jsf

I'm not sure i've seen a comprehensive table of 0-mph times and distances. I certainly have not recorded any yet myself. I'll see wjhat i can dig out.
Is there any specific route or Class 47 subtype that you were interested in?
 

Ghawk2005

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We have dozens of articles covering Class 47 performance in older editions of our quarterly magazine Milepost which can be downloaded (subscription required) from www.railperf.org.uk.

We have a comprehensive search facility here... (membership required) https://rpdf.org.uk/rpdf/welcome.jsf

I'm not sure i've seen a comprehensive table of 0-mph times and distances. I certainly have not recorded any yet myself. I'll see wjhat i can dig out.
Is there any specific route or Class 47 subtype that you were interested in?

Thank you - an average acceleration and braking timings for any Class 47 with 8 Mk2s is all I’m after really. Just want to compare some real life performances with Train Sim World 2.

also if you can find any similar data for Class 165 and 166 too I’d be very grateful.
thanks again.
 

Railperf

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Ahhh yes. I've experienced some serious disparity between the Train simulator performance and real life performance for a great variety of trains.
Class 395 Javelin's for example accelerate much better in the simulation - particularly in the tunnels where aerodynamic factors really blunt performance in the real world.
I will see what we can dig out for you. Are there any train sim routes you regularly 'drive' so that i can see if we have a direct comparison from real journeys logged?
 

SolomonSouth

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Thank you - an average acceleration and braking timings for any Class 47 with 8 Mk2s is all I’m after really. Just want to compare some real life performances with Train Sim World 2.

also if you can find any similar data for Class 165 and 166 too I’d be very grateful.
thanks again.
Well Gary I heard in another thread (by @notadriver) that 0-60 is 102 seconds for a 166 and that they struggled to reach their 90mph top speed on the down fast, which is now run by 387s
 

47827

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Try joining here if you have any more specific questions on this topic as a few of the members have detailed records and knowledge dating back as far as the 70s and 80s.
 

Railperf

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Well Gary I heard in another thread (by @notadriver) that 0-60 is 102 seconds for a 166 and that they struggled to reach their 90mph top speed on the down fast, which is now run by 387s
Last 165 I recorded was 0 to 60 in 117 seconds. The only way to reach 90mph on these was to use one on the Paddington to Oxford stopping at Slough and Reading only, sometimes Didcot.
 

Ghawk2005

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Thanks.

Wow, the 166 in the game gets to 60 in 68 seconds. Ridiculous physics.

Thank you - an average acceleration and braking timings for any Class 47 with 8 Mk2s is all I’m after really. Just want to compare some real life performances with Train Sim World 2.

also if you can find any similar data for Class 165 and 166 too I’d be very grateful.
thanks again.

i like to use the Paddington - Reading because that’s mostly flat so probably the most consistent to compare with.
 
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SolomonSouth

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Thanks.

Wow, the 166 in the game gets to 60 in 68 seconds. Ridiculous physics.
Actually 64 seconds. 0-100 in 5 minutes (in-game it gets to 100) and 0-90 in like 3 or so minutes I think?

Last 165 I recorded was 0 to 60 in 117 seconds. The only way to reach 90mph on these was to use one on the Paddington to Oxford stopping at Slough and Reading only, sometimes Didcot.
165s don't go 90 lmao
They go 75. 166s go 90
 

Railperf

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REAL DATA FROM A JOURNEY IN 1982.

Reading to Paddington: Class 47 with 8 coaches; started 10 mins late:

Milepost 33 - 3 min 50s - 74mph
Milepost 31 - 5 min 24s - 86 mph
Milepost 29 - 6 min 43s - 93 mph
Milepost 27 - 7 min 58s - 98mph
Milepost 24 20 (Maidenhead) 9m 37s - 101mph
Milepost 21 - Burnham - 11m 32 s - 103mph
Milepost 18 - Slough - 12m 59s - 103mph

--

We have some data from a Class 47 with only 5 coaches from 1985

MP 33 - 3m16 s - 82mph
MP 31 - 4m36s - 94mph
MP 29 - 5m49s - 101mph
MP 27 - 6m 59s - 104mph
Milepost 24 20 Maidenhead - 8m34s - 105mph
arrived in Paddington in 25m15s !!

GWR's most certainly do ;)

All 165/1s are geared (and passed) for 90mph.
I'm looking at performance logs from our archives of a 165/1 passing Twyford from a Reading start at 90mph in 5 mins dead, and I have a 166 passing through in 4m50s at 91mph. Both logs show sustained speeds of 92/93mph achieved and maintained!

From a Slough start - here are some examples of timings for a 166/165 combo:

Burnham 2 m55s @77mph
Taplow 4m 02s @87mph
Maidenhead 5m 15s @ 90mph
 
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SolomonSouth

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GWR's most certainly do ;)

All 165/1s are geared (and passed) for 90mph.
166 and 165 accelerate the same tho right?

Actually they do.
165/0 are 75mph, but the GWR 165/1s are 90mph, which is why the 165/1s have yaw dampers but the 165/0s don't

The joke's on you.
Lmao thanks joke is indeed on me mate
I'm looking at performance logs from our archives of a 165/1 passing Twyford from a Reading start at 90mph in 5 mins dead, and I have a 166 passing through in 4m50s at 91mph. Both logs show sustained speeds of 92/93mph achieved and maintained!

From a Slough start - here are some examples of timings for a 166/165 combo:

Burnham 2 m55s @77mph
Taplow 4m 02s @87mph
Maidenhead 5m 15s @ 90mph
Thanks for figures. 2m 55s to 77mph? Not that bad. Still the same pace as a class 377/4 I recorded, watch video here:
Albeit this was in a 8-car formation (377402/448).
I thought the general consensus was that both 165s and 166s struggled to reach their 90mph on a level track, but hey, cheers for the figures.
 

Cowley

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These figures are amazing. Thank you so much.

Interesting stuff. I would say that the runs with class 47s mentioned in the post by @Railperf are definitely in the upper echelons of those achieved by the class on every day duties.
 

Railperf

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Yes they are indeed. One of the runs was 10 minutes late - so every incentive for the driver to 'thrash' it to make up time and in the days of no ATP, OTMR, or TPWS!

One of my colleagues showed me a log of a Class 47 that ran for almost app 7-8 miles at speeds of over 110mph down from Whiteball tunnel towards Exeter. Makes a Class 800 down the same track feel sedate!!
 

Steve Harris

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I don't have any timings but I can remember being on a few class 47 footplates "back in the day". Consist would of been about 8 coaches (1× Mk1 buffer, 1 Mk2 BSO, 1 Mk2 BFK and 5 Mk2 TSO's. Pulling away from a stop on plain line the throttle would be opened up to half way to get "her" rolling then you would shut off (I think due to the ammeter readings), then back to half throttle again momentarily before full throttle to get up to linespeed.

I was 12 at the time and used to know a fair few drivers (nearly all of which are no longer with us) who drove Stratford allocated 47/4's. Used to love being in the secondman's seat

Hopefully some of the above info will be of use.

Edit: Just seen the post above this one. And I can confirm what I said above was back in the day with just AWS !! No data logging back then ! Hell, schools only had BBC B computers at that time !!

I think the linespeed was about 90mph back then too.
 

SolomonSouth

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Yes they are indeed. One of the runs was 10 minutes late - so every incentive for the driver to 'thrash' it to make up time and in the days of no ATP, OTMR, or TPWS!

One of my colleagues showed me a log of a Class 47 that ran for almost app 7-8 miles at speeds of over 110mph down from Whiteball tunnel towards Exeter. Makes a Class 800 down the same track feel sedate!!
The 800s acceleration on diesel is absolute **** so not surprised lmfao
 

hexagon789

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REAL DATA FROM A JOURNEY IN 1982.

Reading to Paddington: Class 47 with 8 coaches; started 10 mins late:

Milepost 33 - 3 min 50s - 74mph
Milepost 31 - 5 min 24s - 86 mph
Milepost 29 - 6 min 43s - 93 mph
Milepost 27 - 7 min 58s - 98mph
Milepost 24 20 (Maidenhead) 9m 37s - 101mph
Milepost 21 - Burnham - 11m 32 s - 103mph
Milepost 18 - Slough - 12m 59s - 103mph

--

We have some data from a Class 47 with only 5 coaches from 1985

MP 33 - 3m16 s - 82mph
MP 31 - 4m36s - 94mph
MP 29 - 5m49s - 101mph
MP 27 - 6m 59s - 104mph
Milepost 24 20 Maidenhead - 8m34s - 105mph
arrived in Paddington in 25m15s !!


I'm looking at performance logs from our archives of a 165/1 passing Twyford from a Reading start at 90mph in 5 mins dead, and I have a 166 passing through in 4m50s at 91mph. Both logs show sustained speeds of 92/93mph achieved and maintained!

From a Slough start - here are some examples of timings for a 166/165 combo:

Burnham 2 m55s @77mph
Taplow 4m 02s @87mph
Maidenhead 5m 15s @ 90mph
As I would expect, little in it but a 166 is slightly quicker. Less resistance with 3 cars and the intermediate slightly lighter giving a slightly higher power-to-weight ratio and thus a 10 second improvement?

I don't have any timings but I can remember being on a few class 47 footplates "back in the day". Consist would of been about 8 coaches (1× Mk1 buffer, 1 Mk2 BSO, 1 Mk2 BFK and 5 Mk2 TSO's. Pulling away from a stop on plain line the throttle would be opened up to half way to get "her" rolling then you would shut off (I think due to the ammeter readings), then back to half throttle again momentarily before full throttle to get up to linespeed.

I was 12 at the time and used to know a fair few drivers (nearly all of which are no longer with us) who drove Stratford allocated 47/4's. Used to love being in the secondman's seat

Hopefully some of the above info will be of use.

Edit: Just seen the post above this one. And I can confirm what I said above was back in the day with just AWS !! No data logging back then ! Hell, schools only had BBC B computers at that time !!

I think the linespeed was about 90mph back then too.
Which route - the GEML to Norwich?

Yes they are indeed. One of the runs was 10 minutes late - so every incentive for the driver to 'thrash' it to make up time and in the days of no ATP, OTMR, or TPWS!

One of my colleagues showed me a log of a Class 47 that ran for almost app 7-8 miles at speeds of over 110mph down from Whiteball tunnel towards Exeter. Makes a Class 800 down the same track feel sedate!!
I must look out a book, I have seen a log where a 100mph curve was taken at over 110 and speed touched something like 115 or so. I believe 100+ was held for quite a distance as well.

Interesting stuff. I would say that the runs with class 47s mentioned in the post by @Railperf are definitely in the upper echelons of those achieved by the class on every day duties.
Some reasonable runs with 47/7s on the E&G, particularly after the timings were tightened a second time in 1984 and 100mph authorised.
 

Ghawk2005

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Thanks again for the data. In Train Sim World 2 the Class 47 + 8 mk2s are within just 1mph at each milepost stated above. Give the huge variables in real life railways I would say that is a pretty decent result.

The Class 166 is about 3-4mph too quick passing each station.
 

SolomonSouth

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Thanks again for the data. In Train Sim World 2 the Class 47 + 8 mk2s are within just 1mph at each milepost stated above. Give the huge variables in real life railways I would say that is a pretty decent result.

The Class 166 is about 3-4mph too quick passing each station.
yeah the 166 in the game is an absolute bullet lol
 

Railperf

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yeah the 166 in the game is an absolute bullet lol
The train Simulator 2021 version of Class 360 is way too quick too. I get round this by using a lower power notch in the game to mimic actual performance.

How does Class 395 compare with the Simulator @notadriver?
 

SolomonSouth

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The train Simulator 2021 version of Class 360 is way too quick too. I get round this by using a lower power notch in the game to mimic actual performance.

How does Class 395 compare with the Simulator @notadriver?
I scenario planned it onto GWML from Reading which is flat. The 395 does 0-140 in 3 min 51 secs which matches up with the graph on eversholt as seen here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-395/
 

Ghawk2005

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Yes most of the EMUs are pretty close in TSW2 but the Class 166 is crazy fast. Such a shame because it’s such an amazing looking model but they’ve refused to change it because it’ll affect all their timetables so I’ve given up asking them. Such a crap attitude if you ask me
 

SolomonSouth

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Yes most of the EMUs are pretty close in TSW2 but the Class 166 is crazy fast. Such a shame because it’s such an amazing looking model but they’ve refused to change it because it’ll affect all their timetables so I’ve given up asking them. Such a crap attitude if you ask me
The values I have are:
Class 43 w/ 4 carriages - 0-60 in 60 seconds approx, then 0-100 in about 3 mins or so and 0-125 in 4 mins. Limiter activates at 132. Before it was there the thing went 167.
Class 166 - 0-60 in 65 secs approx. 0-100 in 5 mins. Buffed from TSW2020 which saw it get 0-60 in 93 seconds and really struggle to reach 90mph on a flat track.
Class 101 - 0-60 in 90 seconds approx with 0-70 in 2 mins. Puts it on par with a class 315. Seems about right (NOT)
Class 465/9 - 0-60 in 47.5 seconds, 0-70 in 63 secs and 0-75 in 73 secs. Both the real and in-game one do hit 50 at around the same speed but the real one struggles a lot more towards top speed
Class 375/377 - 0-60 in 51 seconds and 0-100 in 2 mins 50. When I got on a real 377 the thing took that length of time to reach 75mph! Absolutely laughable! See the video here:
Class 45 - 0-60 in 40 seconds, 0-100 in 2 mins. Gets up to 129 mph. How?
Class 47 - 0-60 in 40 seconds, 0-100 in about 2 mins 45. Gets up to 120mph.
Class 395 (DC) - 75 secs to 60. 3 mins to 80. About 7 mins to 100.
Class 395 (AC) - 37 secs to 60. 82 secs to 100. 155 secs to 125 and 3 mins 51 to 140. Gets up to 145mph.
Class 66 - 0-35 in about 18 seconds, then power loss at 35 prevents a continuous acceleration. Gets up to 80mph then a limiter comes into effect. Before they had the limiter it used to go 156mph!!!!!
M7 LIRR - 0-60 in 44 seconds and 0-100 in 2 mins - suspiciously good for DC.
BR Talent 1442 - 0-60 in 40 secs and 0-100 in about 2 mins
BR Talent 442 - 0-60 in 36 seconds and 0-100 in 96 seconds
1972 stock - 0-30 in 30 seconds. 0-60 in 4 mins 58 seconds. Would a tube train really take 5 mins to 60?? I thought they needed to accelerate fast?
AC4400CW - 0-60 in 30 seconds. Gets up to 77mph.
SD40-2 - 0-60 in 45 secs and gets up to 165mph (Really?). 0-100 in about 2 mins I think.
ICE DB BR 406 - 0-60 in 42 secs, 0-100 in 77 secs, 0-125 in 110 secs, 0-140 in 2 mins 20 secs, 0-180 in 3 mins 44. Extremely fast for a intercity train.
DB BR 182 Taurus - 0-60 in 9.98 seconds!! 0-100 in 19 seconds!!! 0-125 in 28 seconds!! 0-150 in about 38 seconds!!!

Thats about all I can remember. Hope this helps, Gary
 
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Richard Scott

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I don't have any timings but I can remember being on a few class 47 footplates "back in the day". Consist would of been about 8 coaches (1× Mk1 buffer, 1 Mk2 BSO, 1 Mk2 BFK and 5 Mk2 TSO's. Pulling away from a stop on plain line the throttle would be opened up to half way to get "her" rolling then you would shut off (I think due to the ammeter readings), then back to half throttle again momentarily before full throttle to get up to linespeed.
Not sure why they'd shut off, about half power and the amps will rise considerably but as soon as it's rolling drops back quite quickly. Once this happens can virtually apply full power, Sulzer engines seems to have quite a large inertia and take a while to spool up so difficult to overload on a train of that size/weight. Unlike EE engines which spin up quickly and their load regulators are more erratic too making overload more likely.
 
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