Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[fgwrich]

with apologies for going O/T but you've cracked it... IET=Insanely Expensive Train

... from the Insanely Expensive Project. I think Roger Ford coined that one a few years ago actually.

I cant really think of something subtly apt for the "Arterio" yet, other than that they seem to be suffering from "Arteriosclerosis"...

 

[Taunton]

I'm guessing the only real reason why they got orders was because they are assembled in Britain.
Also after Bombadier lost out to Siemens on the Thameslink order there seemed to be a lot of banging on about how the order had gone to a foreigner and that Derby might close/get rid of a lot of staff Etc.

Although this sort of thing might play well with local newspapers and MPs etc, it is generally unwise to go public with it. Because if you start advertising that the company is in prospect of shrinking, a good number of staff, dominated by your better ones who can more readily find positions elsewhere, will start to leave, making the shrinkage not only self-fulfilling, but leading to all sorts of poor production standards, lack of design ability and knowledge, etc.

It was exactly this that led to the demise of North British at the end of the 1950s, when the loss of export orders and refusal to give pay advances led to a significant quantity of their key staff departing, leaving some lesser ones who made some appalling manufacturing decisions, and the spiral of decline which followed.

 

[PG]

Because if you start advertising that the company is in prospect of shrinking, a good number of staff, dominated by your better ones who can more readily find positions elsewhere, will start to leave, making the shrinkage not only self-fulfilling, but leading to all sorts of poor production standards, lack of design ability and knowledge, etc.

Reading that my first thought was this sounds like the short HST refurb at Doncaster Wabtec when Hitachi rode into town...

 

[Mikey C]

Come to think of it, that could be part of it along with some competitive financing being available from Derby. Particularly with Boris's Built in Britain mantra (Noticeable at TfL while he was Mayor of London, despite the continued let downs by Bombardier management to TfL then {late delivery of 172s, issues on the S Stock requiring returns to Derby, Issues with the 09 stock documented on one of the TV series and the Sub Surface Lines reksignalling}) and conveniently ignoring that the IETs use body shells constructed in Kasado and Pistoia. Of course the Crossrail business led to the unusual situation of Bombardier building the stock, and Siemens providing the signalling.

Unfair to highlight Boris for this, as ALL politicians will want domestic production. Indeed the Labour party (and the Unions) would have been slaughtering the coalition government for awarding the Thameslink project to Siemens, and not to Derby.

 

[Energy]

Although this sort of thing might play well with local newspapers and MPs etc, it is generally unwise to go public with it. Because if you start advertising that the company is in prospect of shrinking, a good number of staff, dominated by your better ones who can more readily find positions elsewhere, will start to leave, making the shrinkage not only self-fulfilling, but leading to all sorts of poor production standards, lack of design ability and knowledge, etc.

I suspect a not insignificant amount of those people might have left Derby for some of the other train factories/assembly plants now in the UK.

 

[dgl]

I suspect a not insignificant amount of those people might have left Derby for some of the other train factories/assembly plants now in the UK.

Though given the other manufacturers are not exactly delivering quality products as well I bet a few that might have gone elsewhere might be thinking have I made a mistake.

 

[fgwrich]

Unfair to highlight Boris for this, as ALL politicians will want domestic production. Indeed the Labour party (and the Unions) would have been slaughtering the coalition government for awarding the Thameslink project to Siemens, and not to Derby.

Possibly, but he does rather enjoy the flag waving over certain particular companies, while ignoring others or their backgrounds (Eg, contracts to Wrightbus for unproven technology vs off the shelf from Alexander Dennis, or the patriotic flag waving to Bombardier simply for having Derby, despite being French Canadian headquartered in Berlin - Ironically, Siemens has more of a British History!)

Either way, this is slightly diverting ourselves from the 701 topic though. Not that it seems there is much news on them... again.

 

[dgl]

OT but I've recently thought that the best way of Britain getting orders for things is by claiming what we have made is German, then they'll think German stuff is crap and we'll pick up their orders, would ponly work once though

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm surprised legal action hasn't become public yet - this year's Rock Rail accounts could well provide some interesting results, as it's unlikely they'll be paying for any of them yet. However, I'm fairly confident SWR / Rock Rail will be giving Alstom a (to quote Father Ted) kick up the @rse. The production and deliveries don't appear to have stopped yet, so I don't think we've reached a stage whereby the fleet could be rejected, yet.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC are the entity procuring the trains. There last set of accounts have been posted upto 31/12/20 has an aggregate value of liquidated damages received from Bombardier of c£54m. LDs are usually capped in contracts of between 5-10% so they may have got more back in the 21FY. The accounts don't indicate any compensation was being paid to SWR at this point but be interesting to see what the F21 accounts say.

Note the FY21 accounts weren't posted on Companies House until Nov 21.

 

[5920]

The thing that baffles me is, if the design of the cab is so bad that certain signals can not be seen due to the position of the windscreen wiper, how come they are ‘safe’ for which ever drivers are doing the current mileage accumulation and fault free testing?

I don’t think it’s the drivers position itself so it was ‘safe’ for testing. I thought the issue was with the other driving seat position which would be an issue for a DI or DM with a driver or trainee on assessment or learning……

 

[Goldfish62]

I don’t think it’s the drivers position itself so it was ‘safe’ for testing. I thought the issue was with the other driving seat position which would be an issue for a DI or DM with a driver or trainee on assessment or learning……

That makes more sense, although also doesn't. On all Aventras the "secondman's" seat is of to one side with the edge of the windscreen and the parked wiper partially obscuring the view ahead. That is a personal observation from a 345 cab ride.

The windscreen of the Class 80x is narrower and the parked wiper is in exactly the sane position as on the 701, while the "secondman's" seat is off to the side without a full view ahead.

On the 195 and 331 the parked wiper sits right across the windscreen.

We heard the same with the 458s with ASLEF claiming that the windscreen edge bonding obscured the view.

 

[Fincra5]

That makes more sense, although also doesn't. On all Aventras the "secondman's" seat is of to one side with the edge of the windscreen and the parked wiper partially obscuring the view ahead. That is a personal observation from a 345 cab ride.

The windscreen of the Class 80x is narrower and the parked wiper is in exactly the sane position as on the 701, while the "secondman's" seat is off to the side without a full view ahead.

On the 195 and 331 the parked wiper sits right across the windscreen.

We heard the same with the 458s with ASLEF claiming that the windscreen edge bonding obscured the view.

Exactly the same Issue with 700s.. but they're accepted.

Yet on 387s, 717s infact any gangway stock, you can't half see the otherside of the cab anyway!

You just make adjustments.

 

[spark001uk]

Return of one of the earlier units on today's 5Q10 delivery, 47727 + 701031. Currently paused at Worting Jn.

 

[Robert Carroll]

Has there been any news recently on when these trains may begin driver training?

 

[swr444]

Has there been any news recently on when these trains may begin driver training?

No

 

[DennisM]

Has there been any news recently on when these trains may begin driver training?

We might get a shiny new excuse for their lateness next month if the RMT ballot to strike goes through

 

[Horizon22]

As for Siemens, I can't work out why they've fallen largely out of favour, missing out on some pretty substantial franchise orders. They may be expensive, but at least the Siemens built fleets seem to work.

That's probably why - a preference recently to tender to the cheapest bidder, despite any given concerns. Or even worse, something that appears cheap but actually the underlying contract is incredibly expensive in the long run (Hitachi IETs).

 

[dingdinger]

Seen 044 at Waterloo 5Q68 on platform 20. Looks like of swr management on board.

 

[davews]

Rumour mill says in service in July...

 

[XCTurbostar]

Rumour mill says in service in July...

..2024?

 

[800001]

Rumour mill says in service in July...

That would be very quick to say they have not started any form of driver training?

 

[adc82140]

That would be very quick to say they have not started any form of driver training?

Didn't say how many in service. Could just be the one

 

[800001]

Didn't say how many in service. Could just be the one

Even just one in service would need a fair amount of drivers to be passed out on them.

 

[swr444]

Even just one in service would need a fair amount of drivers to be passed out on them.

and guards too, they'll need to be trained for degraded working when the cameras fail or driver cant see due to sun bleaching etc.

Rumour mill says in service in July...

ASLEF still haven't signed them off so there's no chance

 

[800001]

and guards too, they'll need to be trained for degraded working when the cameras fail or driver cant see due to sun bleaching etc.


ASLEF still haven't signed them off so there's no chance

Forgot about guards But yea, July seems extremely optimistic.

 

[Boski]

and guards too, they'll need to be trained for degraded working when the cameras fail or driver cant see due to sun bleaching etc.


ASLEF still haven't signed them off so there's no chance

Are guards dispatching during degraded working now? I haven’t seen anything about this anywhere?

 

[387star]

Are guards dispatching during degraded working now? I haven’t seen anything about this anywhere?

Wasn't this a result of the recent DOO RMT settlement? Sounds similar to Greater Anglia and Merseyrail as unlike Southern they remain more useful and safety crit plus guaranteed

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I've read today that the 701s for SWR will be in service soon.

 

[800001]

I've read today that the 701s for SWR will be in service soon.

Where is that mentioned? Have they even started driver/guard training?

 

[spark001uk]

I notice in this SWR article they say "Once the first train arrives on the Reading route".
One wonders the significance of the word "train" (singular).??