Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[43096]

8 cars, thus less capacity. They modded the line for 10 car 458 but maybe not enough juice on the rail to take 12 car 450 plus platforms not long enough....

Well aware of that. I was making the point around type of stock, not specific class.

 

[387star]

Given 700s had tables put in after complaints has nothing been learnt?

Is it cost or what?

 

[samuelmorris]

Given 700s had tables put in after complaints has nothing been learnt?

Is it cost or what?

As far as I know that operation was cancelled, and only the units that were built new with the tables will have them.

 

[dctraindriver]

Well aware of that. I was making the point around type of stock, not specific class.

Well if you’re aware of that why ask? You’re obviously aware that the 458 are the major workhorse on the Readings and they’re going, thus the 701s taking over as the 450s are mainline.......

 

[Goldfish62]

As far as I know that operation was cancelled, and only the units that were built new with the tables will have them.

Fitting tables would have been a far better penalty for GTR than their "fine".

 

[samuelmorris]

Fitting tables would have been a far better penalty for GTR than their "fine".

Depends who's ultimately footing the bill.

 

[Goldfish62]

Depends who's ultimately footing the bill.

It would have brought tangible benefits to passengers. We have no idea what happens to the fine they will pay. Anyway, conscious it's getting somewhat OT.

 

[DennisM]

I’d have thought tables would be a no brainier in terms of train presentation. Go on any table-less stock such as 455 anytime after the morning peak and there’s spilled tea & coffee all over the floors as it’s the only place to put a drink, and they inevitably get knocked over or simply forgotten.
Sure tables will accumulate more litter but this can be easily cleaned whereas a spilled drink will be there until the end of the day.

 

[Ethano92]

What are the 30 5 car units for? I'm guessing some will be on the Guilford-ascot route but will the 701s reach the Lymington pier or Portsmouth to Southampton lines? I would expect those to continue to use 450s. Will we see quite a few coupled up and used as a 10car suburban line train.

 

[swt_passenger]

What are the 30 5 car units for? I'm guessing some will be on the Guilford-ascot route but will the 701s reach the Lymington pier or Portsmouth to Southampton lines? I would expect those to continue to use 450s. Will we see quite a few coupled up and used as a 10car suburban line train.

Once they’ve replaced all the 455, 456, 458 and 707 operated services there’ll be non spare to go anywhere else. The numbers of vehicles are almost equivalent give or take a few. (750 vs 742) They’ll be able to run all suburban trains through Wimbledon at 10 car length, which can’t be done now because there aren’t enough 456s. I expect the vast majority will run in multiple as 10 car at least on weekdays.

I doubt you’ll see them on the self contained Guildford/Farnham and Aldershot/Ascot routes at all. Those routes weren’t included in the recent removal of first class in advance of 701s, like Reading was.

 

[43096]

What are the 30 5 car units for? I'm guessing some will be on the Guilford-ascot route but will the 701s reach the Lymington pier or Portsmouth to Southampton lines? I would expect those to continue to use 450s. Will we see quite a few coupled up and used as a 10car suburban line train.

I would think of the 5-car Aventras as direct replacements for the 30 Class 707s. The 10-car Aventras then replace all the 455, 456 and 458 fleets. Don’t expect to see them operating regularly outside the operating area of the fleets they replace.

 

[Ethano92]

Thanks to both makes sense.

I doubt you’ll see them on the self contained Guildford/Farnham and Aldershot/Ascot routes at all. Those routes weren’t included in the recent removal of first class in advance of 701s, like Reading was.

I thought that route was operated by a pair of 456s which of course don't have first class, that's why I assumed it would be taken over by 701s. Is it now operated by 450s too?

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that route was operated by a pair of 456s which of course don't have first class, that's why I assumed it would be taken over by 701s. Is it now operated by 450s too?

You would have been right, but yes, it was changed back to 450s in Dec 2017, which allowed the 10 x 456s to operate as part of 10 car trains elsewhere as originally planned. At the same time first class was reinstated.

 

[Ethano92]

You would have been right, but yes, it was changed back to 450s in Dec 2017, which allowed the 10 x 456s to operate as part of 10 car trains elsewhere as originally planned. At the same time first class was reinstated.

Oh well then I'm very late aren't I. Haven't been on the route since it was changed though. I look at a route like that and wonder why it needs first class but I'm guessing first class fills up at peak from commuters who want a garunteed seat.

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh well then I'm very late aren't I. Haven't been on the route since it was changed though. I look at a route like that and wonder why it needs first class but I'm guessing first class fills up at peak from commuters who want a garunteed seat.

My theory is that it’s one of a few routes that’s a borderline case, and will get First Class only while the stock they happen to use still has it. This came up in the refurbishment thread a couple of days ago, quite a few people expect a gradual reduction in “First” provision, especially with the Southeastern new franchise precedent which is supposed to be removing it completely.

 

[TEW]

Oh well then I'm very late aren't I. Haven't been on the route since it was changed though. I look at a route like that and wonder why it needs first class but I'm guessing first class fills up at peak from commuters who want a garunteed seat.

First Class isn't well used on the route, but the trains are never too busy anyway. Even the busiest peak trains generally have a few seats available.

 

[Helvellyn]

Five-car 701s can be used on contra-peak/shoulder peak services where a ten-car is overkill. I am sure some will double up on some diagrams during the day but it essentially means they didn't need to purchase as many vehicles if they had an all ten-car fleet to cover all diagrams.

 

[Bessie]

Can these be delayed as long as possible? Quite enjoy the new found pleasure of the declassified first section on the 458/5 fleet.

 

[Goldfish62]

Can these be delayed as long as possible? Quite enjoy the new found pleasure of the declassified first section on the 458/5 fleet.

Same here! It's making one hell of a difference to my commute.

 

[Ethano92]

Can these be delayed as long as possible? Quite enjoy the new found pleasure of the declassified first section on the 458/5 fleet.

I doubt they'll be around anytime soon. I think we've been a lot more in the dark about these trains than other aventuras, perhaps because they'll be late.

Anyway, the more you get used to those plush seats, the bigger a surprise those ironing boards will be with no declassified first like on the 700s

 

[Warrior2852]

Will there be a mock-up at Waterloo or somewhere else at some point like there was with the 707s?

 

[samuelmorris]

I doubt they'll be around anytime soon. I think we've been a lot more in the dark about these trains than other aventuras, perhaps because they'll be late.

Anyway, the more you get used to those plush seats, the bigger a surprise those ironing boards will be with no declassified first like on the 700s

Them being late is no longer up for debate. It'll be quite a while yet before you see one in service. As far as I know none have even been assembled yet. The first 720 hasn't appeared out on test yet (to my knowledge) and they were due a few months before the first 701. I imagine you probably have 18 months before 701s start are running more than the odd service here and there.

 

[whhistle]

I found this:

Is it new or old?
If new, why would the front end be changed from the other units in the class?

 

[Harbon 1]

I found this:

Is it new or old?
If new, why would the front end be changed from the other units in the class?

I’m sure I read on here it’s something to do with the available platform space at Waterloo.

I’ve seen a cab and they’re pretty similar to that, and have yellow fronts. But the white is dark blue.

 

[hwl]

I found this:

Is it new or old?
If new, why would the front end be changed from the other units in the class?

Old - Image is from announcement day before the SWR livery... generic livery

 

[whhistle]

Hmm - both have missed the essential question:

"why would the front end be changed from the other units in the class?"

 

[Antman]

So these look like less seating capacity (about 20% down from a 2x455+456). Yes, you will get toilets, AC that may or may not work, you’ll get WiFi but that is not a problem even now as the commuters who load them up all seem to do perfectly fine.

Who is going to tell the people at say Cobham that they are standing all the way in to Waterloo when these come in? That’ll be yet more people disillusioned with the railways. Even more so (on that route) if they build Burpham station with all the new housing going up. Or is that the gamble, people will just have to use the trains. So they will stand anyway.

These look like a straight swap to suit the franchise and some headline numbers about passenger volumes, not the passengers.

What we really want is capacity, which doesn’t seem possible to get from longer trains or more seats, so has to come from increased intensity of services. Oh, and trains that actually run on time at modern speeds. Over to you, NR.... ah, not great so far....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm - both have missed the essential question:

"why would the front end be changed from the other units in the class?"

Er, @Harbon 1 answered that - they need to be a bit shorter due to platform lengths, he says at Waterloo.

 

[swt_passenger]

So these look like less seating capacity (about 20% down from a 2x455+456). Yes, you will get toilets, AC that may or may not work, you’ll get WiFi but that is not a problem even now as the commuters who load them up all seem to do perfectly fine.

Who is going to tell the people at say Cobham that they are standing all the way in to Waterloo when these come in? That’ll be yet more people disillusioned with the railways. Even more so (on that route) if they build Burpham station with all the new housing going up. Or is that the gamble, people will just have to use the trains. So they will stand anyway.

These look like a straight swap to suit the franchise and some headline numbers about passenger volumes, not the passengers.

What we really want is capacity, which doesn’t seem possible to get from longer trains or more seats, so has to come from increased intensity of services. Oh, and trains that actually run on time at modern speeds. Over to you, NR.... ah, not great so far....

5 car 710 has 269 seats - almost exactly the same number of seats, as a 458/5 (270) and a 707 (271). 10 car 710 has 546 seats
That’s nothing like 20% less than the 455+455+456 combination, which DfT reckon is 591 (238+238+115). More like 8% less - exaggeration doesn’t help the discussion. But as we know, not all the 455/456 services actually operate at full 10 car length, there just aren’t enough 456s (24) for that. You need to factor the 8 car services into a comparison.
As you note apparently people asked for toilets, that alone would take up most of the difference.

 

[Harbon 1]

Er, @Harbon 1 answered that - they need to be a bit shorter due to platform lengths, he says at Waterloo.

From what I heard anyway. Seems plausible to me.

Edit: Post #16