Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Goldfish62]

The document pictured in post 7097 refers (twice) to Driver Controlled Operation ( DCO) - not DOO.

As you would expect because that's what we were told the agreement was.

 

[CarrotPie]

Oh I assumed they were both the same thing, what's the difference? Is it this "guard does passenger service duties" agreement that was made a while ago?

DCO is essentially DOO but with a guard on board. The driver has full control of the doors, the guard being there solely for revenue protection and safety purposes. DCO is quicker than GO, but safer than DOO.

 

[stadler]

Oh I assumed they were both the same thing, what's the difference? Is it this "guard does passenger service duties" agreement that was made a while ago?

If i understand it correctly:

• DCO is when there is still a 100% guaranteed second safety critical person onboard but they do not open or close the doors or despatch the train (so the Greater Anglia Conductors on the 720/745/755 and the Southeastern OBMs on the 395 are examples of this)

• DOO is where there is no 100% guaranteed second safety critical person onboard but some trains might still have someone else onboard (so the Scotrail Ticket Examiners on the 318/320/334 and the Southern OBSs on the 377/387 are examples of this as well as trains like C2C and Great Northern and London Overground and Thameslink who have nobody other than the Driver onboard)

Note that ten bell despatch (used on Southern 377 and Cross Country 220/221 and Chiltern Railways 165/168 trains) is sometimes mistakenly called DCO but this method is not DCO and is still considered to be full Guard operation.

 

[DelW]

As you would expect because that's what we were told the agreement was.

The poster to whom I was replying had said incorrectly that it referred to DOO. I was trying to avoid more possible confusion by correcting that

Since guards' training is part of the soft launch, and of the further agreements needed, the difference does have some significance.

 

[stadler]

Have the onboard announcements on these trains been changed from Celia to Elinor?

I can not say for sure but i think it is very likely that they have. It seems that SWR are eventually replacing all their announcements with the 158s and 159s and 484s already done. Considering that the 701s are a major launch they probably want the new announcements from day one so i would guess that the switch from Celia Drummond to Elinor Hamilton has already happened.

 

[DMckduck97]

If full fleet introduction is dependent on further union agreements, there's potentially scope to delay that without it being construed as industrial action.
But this is no more than speculation on my part, so I don't want to push the point any further. We'll find out in due course.

The company also seemed keen on the soft launch to test out the current method of working on a temporary basis. If what I suspect will happen is dispatch moves back to guard close for full operation then it will need union agreement, but that wouldn't take long anyway.

I don't understand why this should all be a particular issue. It's not as if there's never been any new trains introduced on the South Western before (although some people seem to want to ensure that it never happens again). Surely they just do what they've done in the past, most recently with the 707s.

There is also a counter that they are replacing 2 full fleets of trains and not everyone needed to be trained on 707s so it was slightly easier.

Also this is 90 units and not 30 like the 707s, it's a much bigger challenge. The driver training will be the biggest issue and will be what holds full entry into service back

 

[Goldfish62]

The company also seemed keen on the soft launch to test out the current method of working on a temporary basis. If what I suspect will happen is dispatch moves back to guard close for full operation then it will need union agreement, but that wouldn't take long anyway.

Why do you think it would move back to the guard? That's not exactly the standard method of operation in London and the SE. Then there's the agreement struck with ASLEF on DCO, including a financial incentive.

I can't see the DfT agreeing to it.

 

[DMckduck97]

Why do you think it would move back to the guard? That's not exactly the standard method of operation in London and the SE. Then there's the agreement struck with ASLEF on DCO, including a financial incentive.

I can't see the DfT agreeing to it.

I just think the risk of being left behind is too high in its current format, yeah the guard has to key on but there's multiple situations which could arise where that key could be knocked off accidently. Yeah its all subjective but it could happen.

Then you've got all this degraded working, what's stopping drivers every 5 minutes just saying the cameras are crap I'm not working them here you go?

Logically if it says driver open driver close, guards will be gone in the next pay deal

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Southern Metro, Thameslink, GWR 387s, GA 720s, Elizabeth line, Southeastern Metro and LO all run DOO. Why can’t the 701s? Would certainly be much faster than having the guard faff with the doors?

 

[Goldfish62]

I just think the risk of being left behind is too high in its current format, yeah the guard has to key on but there's multiple situations which could arise where that key could be knocked off accidently. Yeah its all subjective but it could happen.

Then you've got all this degraded working, what's stopping drivers every 5 minutes just saying the cameras are crap I'm not working them here you go?

Logically if it says driver open driver close, guards will be gone in the next pay deal

On your first point it works perfectly well on Greater Anglia and Southern so any suggestion that it won't here is surely South Western exceptionalism!

On your last point I think recent history makes that incredibly unlikely. We've been through all that with over two years of strike action before Covid.

 

[DMckduck97]

On your first point it works perfectly well on Greater Anglia and Southern so any suggestion that it won't here is surely South Western exceptionalism!

On your last point I think recent history makes that incredibly unlikely. We've been through all that with over two years of strike action before Covid.

Do they have the same key on and check then key off aswell, if so that is fair enough I didn't know!

But that second one is easy now, SWR drivers will be negotiating their pay deals for 2023 and onwards one day and if the majority are comfortable with doing the doors all the time then I'm sure they will have no issue being the only one onboard for a decent chunk.

The RMT can do nothing about that then can they?

 

[Goldfish62]

The RMT can do nothing about that then can they?

They can go on strike!

Anyway, let's move well away from the DOO debate and back to our favourite unit's eagerly anticipated introduction.

 

[DMckduck97]

They can go on strike!

Anyway, let's move well away from the DOO debate and back to our favourite unit's eagerly anticipated introduction.

Not sure striking on services that won't need them on to run will make a difference, but like you say let's move on

 

[Bumpkin]

Southern Metro, Thameslink, GWR 387s, GA 720s, Elizabeth line, Southeastern Metro and LO all run DOO. Why can’t the 701s? Would certainly be much faster than having the guard faff with the doors?

My bold

The 701s are due to be operated DCO. In DCO, the guards do not operate the doors? The trains are essentially operated DOO but with a guard onboard for customer interaction, revenue checks (where grade permits) and safety critical duties during disruption.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My bold

The 701s are due to be operated DCO. In DCO, the guards do not operate the doors? The trains are essentially operated DOO but with a guard onboard for customer interaction, revenue checks (where grade permits) and safety critical duties during disruption.

So they are to be DCO after all. Sounds good.

 

[Fincra5]

Oh I assumed they were both the same thing, what's the difference? Is it this "guard does passenger service duties" agreement that was made a while ago?

For SWR it might be "Driver Release - Guard Close"?

Edit: Re-Read the image, its basically DOO.

 

[Goldfish62]

Apart from the benefit of new trains and increased capacity the other benefit of the 701s' introduction will be that we can at last stop going round in endless repetitive circles on this thread speculating what the method of operation is going to be.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Not helped by an industry related public magazine culture that has over the last decade or so (IMHO) become what some might say is nothing more than a PR mouthpiece for the industry, so any bad news gets buried before it even surfaces (current SWR woes a noticeable example). There was a time when the industry related media would ask probing questions, but no more it would seem. Are we on a very dangerous (lack of truth news) slope in such matters I wonder, think China, Russia and their news agencies! But one is getting a tad OT now, so apologies to all !

 

[CarrotPie]

Not helped by an industry related public magazine culture that has over the last decade or so (IMHO) become what some might say is nothing more than a PR mouthpiece for the industry, so any bad news gets buried before it even surfaces (current SWR woes a noticeable example). There was a time when the industry related media would ask probing questions, but no more it would seem. Are we on a very dangerous (lack of truth news) slope in such matters I wonder, think China, Russia and their news agencies! But one is getting a tad OT now, so apologies to all !

If they reported all the bad news the magazines would need to be five times thicker for a start...

 

[H&I]

Hi, are the new trains going to be introduced on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?

 

[D365]

Hi, are the new trains going to be introduced on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?

Nobody is reporting a date yet.

 

[Mills444]

Does 5Q40 the 0810 Eastleigh Trsmd to Staines Up Loop still run? The last picture I can find is from March 2023. Is it likely to start back up again?

 

[3973EXL]

5Q86 EH - Long Marston
701524/518

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 0851 Eastleigh Trsmd to Long Marston | 04/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 0851 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Long Marston on 04/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Boski]

Realtime Trains | 5Q22 1307 London Waterloo to London Waterloo | 04/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q22 1307 departure from London Waterloo to London Waterloo on 04/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A 701 currently on test around the hounslow loop. Train is stopping and opening doors and using what looked like driver open guard close method.

 

[swr444]

Apparently one return trip tomorrow to Windsor is planned

 

[CarrotPie]

Apparently one return trip tomorrow to Windsor is planned

In passenger service? Is it on RTT?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Realtime Trains | 5Q22 1307 London Waterloo to London Waterloo | 04/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q22 1307 departure from London Waterloo to London Waterloo on 04/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A 701 currently on test around the hounslow loop. Train is stopping and opening doors and using what looked like driver open guard close method.

If the weather there, is anything like the past 3 hours on the Hants-Sussex coast, then I bet they'd rather keep the 701's doors closed!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In passenger service? Is it on RTT?

There's four return trips in as 5Qxx during the day; if this happens I would guess they'll convert one of those at short notice? Two of them are square in the middle of the off peak period.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Apparently one return trip tomorrow to Windsor is planned

How exciting! Can’t wait to see photos and videos if it works out.

 

[D365]

Apparently one return trip tomorrow to Windsor is planned

In passenger service? Is it on RTT?

No service trains planned tomorrow.