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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

Idiotic

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On the subject of 707 PIS the guard could enter the code. But only the Driver could skip stations on the panel.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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701037 left Waterloo 10 late on 2U49 after apparently experiencing door issues of some kind
Aventras and door issues. A match made in heaven, apparently. I've heard 720s have the same issue, so do many of the other fleets. Why it takes such a long time to solve a problem like this confuses me since I've been hearing about it for years
 

Goldfish62

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Aventras and door issues. A match made in heaven, apparently. I've heard 720s have the same issue, so do many of the other fleets. Why it takes such a long time to solve a problem like this confuses me since I've been hearing about it for years
The 345s have had door issues ever since they were introduced. Not ideal, but it just has to be managed
 
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Well this is definitely something.... shall we call this a new diagram?
IMG-20241004-WA0000.png
PXL_20241004_165610984.MP.jpg
 

Recessio

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The 345s have had door issues ever since they were introduced. Not ideal, but it just has to be managed
I still think the Aventras should have gone for sliding doors like Thameslink's Class 700s. As well as opening and closing quicker, it appears they may also have been quicker to get 701s into service.
 

45076

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So according to this headline we're all wrong and the real reason for the units not being used is
 

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Goldfish62

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So according to this headline we're all wrong and the real reason for the units not being used is
All this just shows the shocking state of our mainstream media. Total silence on the issue for years and they only wake up once the trains actually start being introduced. Pathetic!
 
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Invincible

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All this just shows the shocking state of our mainstream media. Total silence on the issue for years and they only wake up once the trains actually start being introduced. Pathetic!
Was reported back in June 2023
SWR said the delay was partly due to the impact of Covid-19. However, it acknowledged serious issues with the trains' software.

The train drivers' union ASLEF previously reported problems with door obstacle detectors, as well as the coupling process, faulty windscreen wipers and cab doors that were difficult to open
Part of the problem is SWR had specified shorter 20m trains rather than 23m which caused cab problems, and presumably now rectified
Also earlier in the thread Alstom had outsourced software to reduce costs, which did not help.
 
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Invincible

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The 701s were already in production when Alstom took over Bombardier Transportation in January 2021. Alstom may have struggled to fix the problems on the 701s, but they did not cause them.
Good train control software is important, but Alstom moved development to India
Which had a delaying effect on introduction of the 345s and 701s, but now being sorted with latest updates
 

Goldfish62

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It's weekends and evenings that have been suffering the most recently.
I take back what I was saying. Mass cancellations on the Reading line today "due to a shortage of drivers". I also notice last week that the Camberley line evening services were decimated by cancellations.
 

800001

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I take back what I was saying. Mass cancellations on the Reading line today "due to a shortage of drivers". I also notice last week that the Camberley line evening services were decimated by cancellations.
Mass?

I can see 2 cancelled services in each direction all day.

Hardly the definition of Mass cancellations.
 
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Those two are on consecutive services this morning

Train Cancellations
06:09 Reading to London Waterloo due 07:36
07:20 London Waterloo to Reading due 08:46
07:50 London Waterloo to Reading due 09:14
09:09 Reading to London Waterloo due 10:37
09:39 Reading to London Waterloo due 11:04
11:50 London Waterloo to Reading due 13:14
12:50 London Waterloo to Reading due 14:15
13:39 Reading to London Waterloo due 15:04
14:39 Reading to London Waterloo due 16:07
 

Goldfish62

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Mass?

I can see 2 cancelled services in each direction all day.

Hardly the definition of Mass cancellations.
What is it with these forums that someone always wants to have an argument about absolutely everything?

Cancellations towards Waterloo:

0609, 0909, 0939, 1339, 1439.

SWR have ticket acceptance in place on alternative routes.
 

800001

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What is it with these forums that someone always wants to have an argument about absolutely everything?

Cancellations towards Waterloo:

0609, 0909, 0939, 1339, 1439.

SWR have ticket acceptance in place on alternative routes.
It’s not an argument, mearly an observation from RTT, which, as per your list above now includes the 09:39, but not the later 2.

Anyway, we are deviating from the point of this thread which is to do with 701s, not SWR cancellations.
 

Goldfish62

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It’s not an argument, mearly an observation from RTT, which, as per your list above now includes the 09:39, but not the later 2.

Anyway, we are deviating from the point of this thread which is to do with 701s, not SWR cancellations.
Well if you look on Journeycheck.com and the SWR website you'll see the actual picture, the one which passengers actually experience.

And it is to do with the 701s. Further back in the thread it was mentioned that there were currently only 4 drivers per training session and @Bigfoot mentioned that driver shortages were having an impact without taking this training into account.

So my next question, before we got diverted into the definition of "mass" was going to be is whether today's cancellations are due to the number of drivers in training being increased, or more worryingly, is it irrespective of that?
 
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nctd2306

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The mass driver shortages started to happen towards the end of last week, and on top of that the number of short forms was appalling too. At least I can't see any 4/5 cars yet on the Readings (although 2c55 won't be allocated for a few hours yet so there's still time for that to be short formed for the 3rd working day in a row)
I'm currently on a 10-458 so I can't really complain despite a horrendous whining sound coming from under my carriage, worse than the usual squeaking...
 

Snow1964

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And it is to do with the 701s. Further back in the thread it was mentioned that there were currently only 4 drivers per training session and @Bigfoot mentioned that driver shortages were having an impact without taking this training into account.

So my next question, beforehand we got diverted into the definition of "mass" was going to be is whether today's cancellations are due to the number of drivers in training being increased, or more worryingly, is it irrespective of that?

The shortage is all very confusing to me because it appears that SWR are only running 70-80% of the trains of 5 years ago, (not sure of exact percentage), so unless about a quarter of their drivers have retired or left, and none of these have been replaced, it is not clear why they are allegedly so short of drivers now.

I realise that the practical part is limited by number of driver trainers, but the theory/classroom part of the training is more governed by size of lecture hall and how many staff are available to be booked on the course.

It sort of feels to me that the excuse of lack of drivers is covering up something, because combined with the heavily thinned out service suggests it's not 100% of the picture,
 

43066

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The shortage is all very confusing to me because it appears that SWR are only running 70-80% of the trains of 5 years ago, (not sure of exact percentage), so unless about a quarter of their drivers have retired or left, and none of these have been replaced, it is not clear why they are allegedly so short of drivers now.

I realise that the practical part is limited by number of driver trainers, but the theory/classroom part of the training is more governed by size of lecture hall and how many staff are available to be booked on the course.

It sort of feels to me that the excuse of lack of drivers is covering up something, because combined with the heavily thinned out service suggests it's not 100% of the picture,


I’ll refer you to what I pointed out to you last time you made this comment upthread(!):

From memory I think it has been said there is approx 780 SWR suburban drivers. ORR data shows SWR are running about 75-80% of the trains of 5 years ago (some lines have seen frequency halved). Applying bit of simple maths suggests that 5 years ago, 100/77.5 x 780 is roughly 1000.

So unless they have offloaded about 200 drivers in 5 years, then on paper, there are lots of spare drivers which could be training. The only limiting factor appears to be lack of trainers.

A snapshot of bald numbers from five years ago tells us nothing, as we don’t know how many have joined and left in the intervening period! Since then industry wide there have been a lot of retirements through Covid (ageing workforce), plus drastically slowed down trainee recruitment and training. Plus the complexities of diagramming mean it isn’t as simple as saying X% change in driver numbers corresponds to Y% change in services that can run - there are various other factors so the picture is more complex.

As noted above SWR were much more recently unable to run a full service during a driver overtime ban, which suggests they’re currently/very recently comparatively worse off than SE from a driver crewing point of view. Training capacity will be a massive issue as well, of course, as the same people involved in training on the new fleet will also be involved in new driver training, ongoing competency assessments for the existing driver population etc.

The training doesn’t take place in a “lecture hall”, but in small groups in depots or classrooms, and requires people to be released from roster and paired with instructors/managers, who are then taken away from their usual competency assessment duties (and in the case of instructors another line in the roster uncovered).

If they couldn’t run a full service during the ASLEF overtime ban, they’re clearly hardly over burdened with drivers.

Not everything is a conspiracy or cover up!
 
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Towers

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I suppose the pertinent question is what takes priority; 701 training or running the day to day service. My expectation would be to see training on 701s cancelled to release drivers back to cover their turns, but of course this isn’t a particularly “normal” situation and there may be other pressures being applied - or there might not be, of course!
 

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