Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[swtrains]

The kit is cheap and a poor build quality that is why, you would think such an important safety critical tool should have high quality hardware.

I think the only unit with decent handsets is 037, all the rest cut out frequently.

Should've stuck with Siemens (707s).

 

[mansonlo49]

reported as 701033

Alright, thank you

 

[Samzino]

The issues with PA systems isn't just restricted to the 701s. 345s also have muffled sounding PAs and I rode on a few 730s which sounded as so. Can't all have the same crew, that aren't speaking into them properly.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Should've stuck with Siemens (707s).

701s offer a number of benefits/improvements over the 707s. The issues that do exist are far outweighed by those

 

[Bigfoot]

701s offer a number of benefits/improvements over the 707s. The issues that do exist are far outweighed by those

Such as?

 

[Goldfish62]

Such as?

Toilets, better seats (not difficult!), tables at some seats.

Should've stuck with Siemens (707s).

I'm sure users on South Eastern would welcome theirs returning to SWR as they don't seem to have been received at all well.

 

[Bigfoot]

Toilets, better seats (not difficult!), tables at some seats.

A huge list all easily rectified on existing units and easily included/rectified in a new order build.

None of these outweigh the issues with the 701.

Try again.

 

[D365]

A huge list all easily rectified on existing units and easily included/rectified in a new order build.

None of these outweigh the issues with the 701.

Which issues are you referring to?

 

[43096]

Which issues are you referring to?

The fact that they are years late?

 

[Samzino]

A huge list all easily rectified on existing units and easily included/rectified in a new order build.

None of these outweigh the issues with the 701.

Try again.

What issues are so serious that they outweigh clear advantages that do exist on the 701?? Also its true replacement comparison is the 455s and the AC alone is one major advantage aswell as walk though carriages, increasing capacity. At some point they were also expected to They will also replace 458s and again there's quite a few advantages the 701s over those. Teething issues happen, yes albeit its a few years late but the issues you seem to be mentioning are "Serious" enough to negate the advantages of the 701.

 

[swr444]

What issues are so serious that they outweigh clear advantages that do exist on the 701?? Also its true replacement comparison is the 455s and the AC alone is one major advantage aswell as walk though carriages, increasing capacity. At some point they were also expected to replace 458s and again there's quite a few advantages the 701s over those. Teething issues happen, yes albeit its a few years late but the issues you seem to be mentioning are "Serious" enough to negate the advantages of the 701.

They are replacing 458s

 

[Samzino]

They are replacing 458s

Ah, wasn't too sure after the whole leasing stuff. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Bigfoot]

Which issues are you referring to?

Read the posts that that post is in reply to

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Such as?

USB by every seat, small tables in the bays, (bioreactor) toilets, larger windows, underfloor heating, a more comfortable seat with extra padding, more standing space by the doors, more grab handles, additional passenger information screens by the doors, sensitive edge technology doors, faster acceleration, better interior lighting/ambience (partially because of the two panel light setup rather than one centre on the 707s), a more efficient traction motor featuring a forced air system which means regenerative braking can be achieved at lower speeds than on a mounted fan system etc etc etc.

I highly doubt Siemens would have been able to adapt a second batch of 707s to meet all of these improvements. And clearly they couldn't, considering that they submitted a non-compliant bid at the tender stage.
I can already say off the bat that the current batch was at max axle weight, which meant toilets couldn't be fitted even if they wanted to.

Another factor to consider is leasing cost.
If the 707s were more expensive to lease, even if they had ordered more would it have been as such a great quantity? Would we be getting 60 10-car units and 30 5-car units or just 90 5-car units?

The truth is that these are not lumps of plastic as people have been making them out to be for years now. Most realised that when they entered passenger service for the first time.

They might have teething problems, or those which are common across the whole family, but that applies to most new trains.
The main thing is that, overall, they offer a great passenger product for their duties, being commuter/metro, one that is an improvement over that offered by the Desiro City models (and by no argument the older trains)
You cannot argue that their downsides outweigh their many, many upsides.
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Of course, for drivers I can see your argument as well. The Desiro City driving experience is hard to beat. Nice desk, big window, lots of space, and large screens.
And it cannot be left out that when 701s were first delivered, it was clearly unsafe and unsuitable, or to use the words of those at the top, "not fit for purpose"

However, at least with all the adjustments stipulated by the unions, I can't exactly see how the driving of 701s would be much of a downgrade over the 707s.
You still get the big windscreen, digital displays, driving performance (which as aforementioned is actually better on the 701s), notch-less CPBC and all the other fancy modern commodities.
Sure, there's no arguing the cab is smaller (and depending on your preference less ergonomic) but it's still miles above the size of those on the 455s, 458s, or standard Desiros.

 

[Goldfish62]

A huge list all easily rectified on existing units and easily included/rectified in a new order build.

None of these outweigh the issues with the 701.

Try again.

I don't have to try again.

You asked what improvements there are over 707s and I gave a list of some that spring to mind, unless you regard things such as toilets and better seats as not actual improvements.

 

[43066]

I'm sure users on South Eastern would welcome theirs returning to SWR as they don't seem to have been received at all well.

No thanks!

 

[Bigfoot]

I don't have to try again.

You asked what improvements there are over 707s and I gave a list of some that spring to mind, unless you regard things such as toilets and better seats as not actual improvements.

Seats are individual. The 707 seat is perfectly comfortable for myself and many others. Many other designs of seats that others rave about I can't stand to sit in and will actively avoid. Toilets as I said could be easily retrofitted.

 

[hvordan]

I'm sure users on South Eastern would welcome theirs returning to SWR as they don't seem to have been received at all well.

Are you sure? Most people I commute with seem much happier when a 707 turns up compared to the 376 or Networkers.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Are you sure? Most people I commute with seem much happier when a 707 turns up compared to the 376 or Networkers.

I believe he’s being sarcastic, unless I am mistaken

 

[norbitonflyer]

Toilets as I said could be easily retrofitted.

I can already say off the bat that the current batch [0f 707s] was at max axle weight, which meant toilets couldn't be fitted even if they wanted to.

although I note that the similar class 700s have them, as well as a heavy transformer as they have to work on AC as well as DC

 

[Carlisle]

Toilets as I said could be easily retrofitted.

Has any class of train that didn’t originally have any toilets been retrofitted with them in recent years ? I can’t think of any.

 

[Goldfish62]

Seats are individual. The 707 seat is perfectly comfortable for myself and many others.

It's the most basic version of the infamous ironing board, the seat that has given train seats in this country such a poor reputation. If you find that comfortable, fair enough, but I'm curious as to how you know "many others" do.

Seats are individual. The 707 seat is perfectly comfortable for myself and many others. Many other designs of seats that others rave about I can't stand to sit in and will actively avoid. Toilets as I said could be easily retrofitted.

I think you've been asking the wrong question, which really should be whether the Aventra is an improvement over the Desiro City.

 

[Bigfoot]

although I note that the similar class 700s have them, as well as a heavy transformer as they have to work on AC as well as DC

Has any class of train that didn’t originally have any toilets been retrofitted with them in recent years ? I can’t think of any.

Part of the specification of the order for the 707 was "Provision for installation of UNI WC (TOS(L)W)"

The coach is named TOS(L)W, Trailer Open Standard (Lavatory) Wheelchair.

It's the most basic version of the infamous ironing board, the seat that has given train seats in this country such a poor reputation. If you find that comfortable, fair enough, but I'm curious as to how you know "many others" do.

I have spoken with many friends who travel on the "ironing board" seats and not one had an issue with them. I'm sure they aren't alone.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Has any class of train that didn’t originally have any toilets been retrofitted with them in recent years ? I can’t think of any.

No - a few have gone the other way, such as class 456

 

[swr444]

This weekend sees the first 701s in service, working rugby specials

11:10 WAT-HOU 1R07
12:40 WAT-HOU 1R17
14:10 WAT-HOU 1R31

unsure if there are any others

 

[TEW]

It's just those. The plan is for those runs to be repeated on several upcoming Saturdays.

 

[JonathanH]

Has any class of train that didn’t originally have any toilets been retrofitted with them in recent years ? I can’t think of any.

320s a while ago and 172/0s more recently, although both reflected a change of use.

 

[Goldfish62]

I have spoken with many friends who travel on the "ironing board" seats and not one had an issue with them. I'm sure they aren't alone.

Well, I've spoken with many friends who travel on the ironing boards and not one has anything good to say about them. Judging by social media they clearly aren't alone.

This weekend sees the first 701s in service, working rugby specials

11:10 WAT-HOU 1R07
12:40 WAT-HOU 1R17
14:10 WAT-HOU 1R31

unsure if there are any others

Excellent. More progress on the roll-out.

 

[Bigfoot]

Well, I've spoken with many friends who travel on the ironing boards and not one has anything good to say about them. Judging by social media they clearly aren't alone.

The general population is renowned for complimenting things on social media and definitely not complaining.

 

[Carlisle]

320s a while ago and 172/0s more recently, although both reflected a change of use.

Ok thanks, clearly I’m wrong .