Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Goldfish62]

The general population is renowned for complimenting things on social media and definitely not complaining.

Now you've lost me.

I get it. You don't like the 701s for your own personal reasons and you must be gutted that they're finally being rolled out. Let's leave it there and move on.

 

[Elorith]

Surely there aren't still people who think that replacing the more expensive 707s with 701s has all been worth the last 7 years of passengers and staff being subjected to short formations and life-expired rolling stock!

 

[Ian Hardy]

This weekend sees the first 701s in service, working rugby specials

11:10 WAT-HOU 1R07
12:40 WAT-HOU 1R17
14:10 WAT-HOU 1R31

unsure if there are any others

Looking at Real Time Trains:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...11-02/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual

The 701 unit that operates the 11:10 will be the first 701 to be written off as there is no equivalent ECS working departing from platform 1 at Hounslow before the 11:25 WAT-HOU 1R09 arrives. There is also no ECS working for that unit to leave platform 1 before the 11:33 WYB-WAT 2S32 service comes through Hounslow.

Hopefully the reason is because SWR's planners haven't got around to adding the ECS services to the schedule yet.

 

[swr444]

Looking at Real Time Trains:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...11-02/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual

The 701 unit that operates the 11:10 will be the first 701 to be written off as there is no equivalent ECS working departing from platform 1 at Hounslow before the 11:25 WAT-HOU 1R09 arrives. There is also no ECS working for that unit to leave platform 1 before the 11:33 WYB-WAT 2S32 service comes through Hounslow.

Hopefully the reason is because SWR's planners haven't got around to adding the ECS services to the schedule yet.

Returns are 5R18/30/32 and are in our diagrams.

 

[swtrains]

USB by every seat, small tables in the bays, (bioreactor) toilets, larger windows, underfloor heating, a more comfortable seat with extra padding, more standing space by the doors, more grab handles, additional passenger information screens by the doors, sensitive edge technology doors, faster acceleration, better interior lighting/ambience (partially because of the two panel light setup rather than one centre on the 707s), a more efficient traction motor featuring a forced air system which means regenerative braking can be achieved at lower speeds than on a mounted fan system etc etc etc.

I highly doubt Siemens would have been able to adapt a second batch of 707s to meet all of these improvements. And clearly they couldn't, considering that they submitted a non-compliant bid at the tender stage.
I can already say off the bat that the current batch was at max axle weight, which meant toilets couldn't be fitted even if they wanted to.

Another factor to consider is leasing cost.
If the 707s were more expensive to lease, even if they had ordered more would it have been as such a great quantity? Would we be getting 60 10-car units and 30 5-car units or just 90 5-car units?

The truth is that these are not lumps of plastic as people have been making them out to be for years now. Most realised that when they entered passenger service for the first time.

They might have teething problems, or those which are common across the whole family, but that applies to most new trains.
The main thing is that, overall, they offer a great passenger product for their duties, being commuter/metro, one that is an improvement over that offered by the Desiro City models (and by no argument the older trains)
You cannot argue that their downsides outweigh their many, many upsides.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, for drivers I can see your argument as well. The Desiro City driving experience is hard to beat. Nice desk, big window, lots of space, and large screens.
And it cannot be left out that when 701s were first delivered, it was clearly unsafe and unsuitable, or to use the words of those at the top, "not fit for purpose"

However, at least with all the adjustments stipulated by the unions, I can't exactly see how the driving of 701s would be much of a downgrade over the 707s.
You still get the big windscreen, digital displays, driving performance (which as aforementioned is actually better on the 701s), notch-less CPBC and all the other fancy modern commodities.
Sure, there's no arguing the cab is smaller (and depending on your preference less ergonomic) but it's still miles above the size of those on the 455s, 458s, or standard Desiros.

Your defense of the 701s comes across as more wishful than factual. Your lengthy list of supposedly game-changing features reads like it's aimed at passengers who'll overlook glaring issues for marginal improvements. As pointed out above, most of these "upgrades" could be easily retrofitted to the 707s, or could have been specified in a second order, if SWR had any sense back in 2017. Addressing some of your points below:

• USB ports - useful, but they can easily be retrofitted. It clearly wasn't a demand back when they were ordered. And if we're being realistic, most people would use an actual AC outlet to charge their laptops or phones, as people are more likely to carry a powerbank with a cable, not just on its own. Also, one could argue that the USB-A ports are outdated, as more devices switch to Type-C.
• Small tables - can realistically only be used by one person at a time, instead of four, like the refurbed 458/4s, for example.
• Additional passenger information by the doors - useless. It doesn't show a live map, and probably won't for a long time because of the cheap system running the whole train. The fact that a normal PID can't show scrolling text at a normal refresh rate is honestly pathetic. Yet you insist that this could be considered a better feature than what's on the 707? That's beyond me.
• Regenerative braking - I would love to see some data on how much more effective it is than the 707s. Where's your source for that?
• Larger windows, underfloor heating, grab handles, acceleration and more comfortable seats - these are nice additions in theory, not going to deny that. But, what good is a large window if the poor seating alignment blocks half the view with dull grey plastic. Standing space may be increased, but the seat alignment sacrifices any real advantage here, especially since standing space on the 707s was already extremely capable. Seats might be more padded, but it's still an ironing board.

If the 707s were more expensive to lease, even if they had ordered more would it have been as such a great quantity? Would we be getting 60 10-car units and 30 5-car units or just 90 5-car units?

Since you seem to have insider knowledge on every company, perhaps you can enlighten us?

Most realised that when they entered passenger service for the first time.

Naturally, passengers would feel that way after the far superior 707s were withdrawn three years ago, forcing everyone to make do with 450s/455s/458s again. Removing the 707s was a downgrade to everyone's experience, effectively setting us back to 2014 again. After 3-4 years, many commuters - including you, no doubt about that, would have forgotten just how good the 707s were, so introducing 701s might seem like a major improvement - when in reality, they fall far short of the praise you're giving them.

You cannot argue that their downsides outweigh their many, many upsides.

Sure, but since these trains were meant to be running in 2019, that delay alone is a huge downside. Let's not gloss over the fact that we're now in the last few months of 2024. Commuters have had to suffer for five years of subpar service because these weren't ready, and you somehow suggest that the upsides make it worth the wait? SWR's short-sighted decision to phase out its most useful and reliable train for coping with increased demand did not help, instead of retiring the 455s first.
Imagine if things had gone the other way, and a new order had been placed for the 707s (with more features) to replace the rest of the fleet. I highly doubt we'd even be having this discussion about their introduction.
Under SWR, the 707s were one of the most reliable trains in the UK, clocking over 100,000 miles per technical incident. Meanwhile, the 701s, and any Aventra really, can't even come close to that level of reliability. They can't dream of matching Siemens's quality, can they? Trying to argue otherwise is delusional.

Passengers don't need you to tell them the 701s have "many upsides". The fact is they endured years of frustration, and inconvenience, thanks to these new trains. That outweighs all the ambient lighting and USB ports in the world.

Are you sure? Most people I commute with seem much happier when a 707 turns up compared to the 376 or Networkers.

This is exactly how it was when the 707s were still with us. Passengers were always happy when they saw a 707 turn up instead of a 455, because of their quality, and modern features they provided, not to mention their reliability. Never heard anyone moaning about the seats, because these are designed to be used on commuter lines, not long distance, so they're fine, and slightly comfier than 700s.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Has any class of train that didn’t originally have any toilets been retrofitted with them in recent years ? I can’t think of any.

320s a while ago and 172/0s more recently, although both reflected a change of use.

Did the DT of the original Class 321 have a toilet?
The Renatus DT has a gigantic accessible toilet, leading to a big white space where the windows used to be at the inner end.
Photo: https://railm.blob.core.windows.net/website/1/root/ga-321304-ipswich1-dec161_w555_h555.jpg

 

[Recessio]

Your defense of the 701s comes across as more wishful than factual. Your lengthy list of supposedly game-changing features reads like it's aimed at passengers who'll overlook glaring issues for marginal improvements. As pointed out above, most of these "upgrades" could be easily retrofitted to the 707s, or could have been specified in a second order, if SWR had any sense back in 2017. Addressing some of your points below:

• USB ports - useful, but they can easily be retrofitted. It clearly wasn't a demand back when they were ordered. And if we're being realistic, most people would use an actual AC outlet to charge their laptops or phones, as people are more likely to carry a powerbank with a cable, not just on its own. Also, one could argue that the USB-A ports are outdated, as more devices switch to Type-C.
• Small tables - can realistically only be used by one person at a time, instead of four, like the refurbed 458/4s, for example.
• Additional passenger information by the doors - useless. It doesn't show a live map, and probably won't for a long time because of the cheap system running the whole train. The fact that a normal PID can't show scrolling text at a normal refresh rate is honestly pathetic. Yet you insist that this could be considered a better feature than what's on the 707? That's beyond me.
• Regenerative braking - I would love to see some data on how much more effective it is than the 707s. Where's your source for that?
• Larger windows, underfloor heating, grab handles, acceleration and more comfortable seats - these are nice additions in theory, not going to deny that. But, what good is a large window if the poor seating alignment blocks half the view with dull grey plastic. Standing space may be increased, but the seat alignment sacrifices any real advantage here, especially since standing space on the 707s was already extremely capable. Seats might be more padded, but it's still an ironing board.

Since you seem to have insider knowledge on every company, perhaps you can enlighten us?


Naturally, passengers would feel that way after the far superior 707s were withdrawn three years ago, forcing everyone to make do with 450s/455s/458s again. Removing the 707s was a downgrade to everyone's experience, effectively setting us back to 2014 again. After 3-4 years, many commuters - including you, no doubt about that, would have forgotten just how good the 707s were, so introducing 701s might seem like a major improvement - when in reality, they fall far short of the praise you're giving them.


Sure, but since these trains were meant to be running in 2019, that delay alone is a huge downside. Let's not gloss over the fact that we're now in the last few months of 2024. Commuters have had to suffer for five years of subpar service because these weren't ready, and you somehow suggest that the upsides make it worth the wait? SWR's short-sighted decision to phase out its most useful and reliable train for coping with increased demand did not help, instead of retiring the 455s first.
Imagine if things had gone the other way, and a new order had been placed for the 707s (with more features) to replace the rest of the fleet. I highly doubt we'd even be having this discussion about their introduction.
Under SWR, the 707s were one of the most reliable trains in the UK, clocking over 100,000 miles per technical incident. Meanwhile, the 701s, and any Aventra really, can't even come close to that level of reliability. They can't dream of matching Siemens's quality, can they? Trying to argue otherwise is delusional.

Passengers don't need you to tell them the 701s have "many upsides". The fact is they endured years of frustration, and inconvenience, thanks to these new trains. That outweighs all the ambient lighting and USB ports in the world.


This is exactly how it was when the 707s were still with us. Passengers were always happy when they saw a 707 turn up instead of a 455, because of their quality, and modern features they provided, not to mention their reliability. Never heard anyone moaning about the seats, because these are designed to be used on commuter lines, not long distance, so they're fine, and slightly comfier than 700s.

So you claim adding tables and toilets is an easy retrofit, but merely updating the software on the PID (or even retrofitting the "cheap" system installed) isn't an option you considered?

Anyway on the topic of introduction to service: are we likely to see these coming down to Guildford any time soon?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Did the DT of the original Class 321 have a toilet?

No. It was in the TS, the carriage which was removed when converted to class 320. A new accessible toilet was fitted to all members of both subclasses

 

[markle]

And if we're being realistic, most people would use an actual AC outlet

Then you'll be delighted to know that every seat pair has an AC outlet as well as two USB A sockets.

I agree with you that USB C would be have been more future-proof, though.

 

[Bigfoot]

Now you've lost me.

I get it. You don't like the 701s for your own personal reasons and you must be gutted that they're finally being rolled out. Let's leave it there and move on.

It seems quite easy to do that...

I like them, they are a huge improvement over the 455s but so are the 707s. Are they better than other rolling stock for the same purpose until they are fully introduced we won't know.

 

[TEW]

So you claim adding tables and toilets is an easy retrofit, but merely updating the software on the PID (or even retrofitting the "cheap" system installed) isn't an option you considered?

Anyway on the topic of introduction to service: are we likely to see these coming down to Guildford any time soon?

Relatively soon, at least one unit will run to Guildford at an early stage of the rollout, so within the next few months.

 

[Goldfish62]

Are they better than other rolling stock for the same purpose until they are fully introduced we won't know.

On that we're in agreement!

I'm sure Wimbledon will work their magic on them and I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being the most reliable Aventra fleet.

 

[swtrains]

So you claim adding tables and toilets is an easy retrofit, but merely updating the software on the PID (or even retrofitting the "cheap" system installed) isn't an option you considered?

Updating the software would be unlikely to improve the already poor performance. It struggles to scroll text as it is, so I'd imagine it would either have to stop scrolling if a live map was to be added.
Of course, a new system could be retrofitted, but let's be realistic. Do you genuinely believe SWR is going to pay for that? It's evident that cost-cutting measures were applied, as shown by the fact that all Aventras have had to settle for a compromised system with no scrolling text (apart from 730s), for better or worse.
Had they invested in a decent system initially, there wouldn't be a need to consider "retrofitting" a replacement now, just to achieve basic functionality.

 

[Samzino]

Isn't the issues to be expected intially with the 701? It compared to the 345s are pretty much a different change bar a few things and the internal guts where as the 707 is practically a carbon copy of the 700s minus a Pantograph and toilets.

701s reliability will pick up, it's pretty much a new train(obviously very delayed now). 707s had a very short type conversion training for drivers and the luxury of the 700s actually having a solid few months of running and all those bugs and issues used to improve the 707s and their siblings.

As been said when compared to the intended fleets of replacement, the 701s are solid upgrades and as someone else has mentioned I'd not be surprised that Wimbledon tinker them into being the most reliable Aventra fleet.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As been said when compared to the intended fleets of replacement, the 701s are solid upgrades and as someone else has mentioned I'd not be surprised that Wimbledon tinker them into being the most reliable Aventra fleet.

maybe they will, but five years after delivery you would expect those teething troubles to have been ironed out already

 

[Goldfish62]

Isn't the issues to be expected intially with the 701? It compared to the 345s are pretty much a different change bar a few things and the internal guts where as the 707 is practically a carbon copy of the 700s minus a Pantograph and toilets.

701s reliability will pick up, it's pretty much a new train(obviously very delayed now). 707s had a very short type conversion training for drivers and the luxury of the 700s actually having a solid few months of running and all those bugs and issues used to improve the 707s and their siblings.

As been said when compared to the intended fleets of replacement, the 701s are solid upgrades and as someone else has mentioned I'd not be surprised that Wimbledon tinker them into being the most reliable Aventra fleet.

Anyone who follows Roger Ford's monthly new trains reliability survey in Modern Railways will be fully aware of the trials and tribulations of all newly introduced rolling stock. The 701s have yet to appear, but I would certainly be disappointed if they didn't beat the continuing lamentable perform of the Stadler 777s from the off.

 

[Nogoohwell]

This debate between 701 & 707 is becoming a joke.
Im a commuter, ever considered my thoughts?
Seats - who cares, im just lucky if i manage to get on one as the services are over crowded.
Information Screens - no one uses them, seems like a tick box exercise. Everyone is eyes on phones or face rammed into another persons armpit.
USB/Plug sockets - nice to have, but you have to have a seat so you would be stupid to make assumptions that you could guarantee to use one.

These are going to be mass people movers, not trans european pleasure yachts. 1 hour journey max, tube journeys are longer and with a lot less comfort.

If i have more space, maybe a seat, aircon for the summer and more chance of keeping to time, then im a happy camper. And so will 95% of the people using them.

 

[Samzino]

Anyone who follows Roger Ford's monthly new trains reliability survey in Modern Railways will be fully aware of the trials and tribulations of all newly introduced rolling stock. The 701s have yet to appear, but I would certainly be disappointed if they didn't beat the continuing lamentable perform of the Stadler 777s from the off.

Definitely

maybe they will, but five years after delivery you would expect those teething troubles to have been ironed out already

Agreed but several of those years have been in storage, not doing much. Here and there testing but nothing like proper rush hour jam packed loadings to find out issues and iron those out.

 

[3973EXL]

701050

Realtime Trains | 5Q87 1233 Long Marston Gbrf to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 31/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q87 1233 departure from Long Marston Gbrf to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 31/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43096]

These are going to be mass people movers, not trans european pleasure yachts. 1 hour journey max,

One hour max? These contraptions are not just 455 inner suburban replacements they will also do the Reading line with some stations over an hour from Waterloo.

 

[markle]

Just to wade in on the seat comfort debate (sorry!).

Whilst the 701's seats may have more cushioning, I find them to be less comfortable than the 707s, particularly the window seat.

Why?

Well, the 707s have a 2 inch spacer between the seat and the window, and a 2 inch spacer between the seats.

The 701s have no spacers.

This means you have far less personal space and on a full train it can be quite uncomfortable.

It's as though they've taken the dreaded, squeezed together, 'five across' seating configuration, and removed the middle seat.

Of course the reasons for this decision are quite clear to me - the trains are designed to transport as many people as possible and the removal of the spacers mean more standing space. But it is at the notable expense of the comfort of seated passengers.

 

[43096]

Just to wade in on the seat comfort debate (sorry!).

Whilst the 701's seats may have more cushioning, I find them to be less comfortable than the 707s, particularly the window seat.

Why?

Well, the 707s have a 2 inch spacer between the seat and the window, and a 2 inch spacer between the seats.

The 701s have no spacers.

This means you have far less personal space and on a full train it can be quite uncomfortable.

It's as though they've taken the dreaded, squeezed together, 'five across' seating configuration, and removed the middle seat.

Of course the reasons for this decision are quite clear to me - the trains are designed to transport as many people as possible and the removal of the spacers mean more standing space. But it is at the notable expense of the comfort of seated passengers.

But, as Ian Walmsley has said in Modern Railways before, removal of that spacer is a delusion. All that happens is that people sat in the aisle seat overhang into the aisle, which then reduces the standing room. So to some TOC or DfT numpty they think they have more standing space, but in reality they don’t.

The 458/5s show how it should be done, with the spacer between the comfortable seats. Who specified that? Ian Walmsley!

 

[Goldfish62]

Just to wade in on the seat comfort debate (sorry!).

Whilst the 701's seats may have more cushioning, I find them to be less comfortable than the 707s, particularly the window seat.

Why?

Well, the 707s have a 2 inch spacer between the seat and the window, and a 2 inch spacer between the seats.

The 701s have no spacers.

This means you have far less personal space and on a full train it can be quite uncomfortable.

It's as though they've taken the dreaded, squeezed together, 'five across' seating configuration, and removed the middle seat.

The seats are apparently slightly wider so even lacking a spacer the amount of personal space should be the same. Personally I find no difference compared to the 707, where the spacer is somewhat miserable anyway.

Admittedly I haven't been on a 707 for a while and on the 700s I always sit in the rear slightly more comfortable declassified 1st seats.

To my mind the spacing of the seats on the 455s together with plenty of vertical grab rails is the optimal arrangement, but not DfT-compliant!

 

[mansonlo49]

701050

Realtime Trains | 5Q87 1233 Long Marston Gbrf to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 31/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q87 1233 departure from Long Marston Gbrf to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 31/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

does anyone have the list of all the 701s at Long Marston thanks

 

[WarrenTManager]

Anyone who follows Roger Ford's monthly new trains reliability survey in Modern Railways will be fully aware of the trials and tribulations of all newly introduced rolling stock. The 701s have yet to appear, but I would certainly be disappointed if they didn't beat the continuing lamentable perform of the Stadler 777s from the off.

I am really surprised that the Manufacturer or TOC would not enter them as distinct sub-classes 777/0 and 777/1 given the possible extra chance for TINs given the extra tech and issues while on batteries.....

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The 701s have no spacers.

 

[Ethano92]

The seats are apparently slightly wider so even lacking a spacer the amount of personal space should be the same. Personally I find no difference compared to the 707, where the spacer is somewhat miserable anyway.

Admittedly I haven't been on a 707 for a while and on the 700s I always sit in the rear slightly more comfortable declassified 1st seats.

To my mind the spacing of the seats on the 455s together with plenty of vertical grab rails is the optimal arrangement, but not DfT-compliant!

To be honest, rightly so. I know people on here say that due to seat spacing, seated passengers spill into the aisle but once these trains reach the likes of Earlsfield or Putney already rammed, wide aisles will make it far easier for people to move right down the carriage and allow more passengers on board. Wide aisles will also make getting off at Clapham Junction, for example, far easier as you can squeeze past people stood in the aisles easier, currently tricky and tedious on the 455s.

 

[WarrenTManager]

To be honest, rightly so. I know people on here say that due to seat spacing, seated passengers spill into the aisle but once these trains reach the likes of Earlsfield or Putney already rammed, wide aisles will make it far easier for people to move right down the carriage and allow more passengers on board. Wide aisles will also make getting off at Clapham Junction, for example, far easier as you can squeeze past people stood in the aisles easier, currently tricky and tedious on the 455s.

I find the 450s covering 455 type duties worse. 2D47 is one I try to avoid as much as possible.

 

[Goldfish62]

To be honest, rightly so. I know people on here say that due to seat spacing, seated passengers spill into the aisle but once these trains reach the likes of Earlsfield or Putney already rammed, wide aisles will make it far easier for people to move right down the carriage and allow more passengers on board. Wide aisles will also make getting off at Clapham Junction, for example, far easier as you can squeeze past people stood in the aisles easier, currently tricky and tedious on the 455s.

Fair comment!

 

[infobleep]

A huge list all easily rectified on existing units and easily included/rectified in a new order build.

None of these outweigh the issues with the 701.

Try again.

As someone with various health issues, I welcome the loos on the train.