Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Class377/5, 29 Oct 2015.

  1. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    The bodyshell of the 707 had now been completed.

    http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-trains-class-707-emu-under-construction.html

    Lovely and red.
     
  2. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    So are these being delivered and built parallel to the 700s?
     
  3. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    Good to see Wifi and power sockets included but with no toilets,tables, gangways etc it hardly seems a hugely state of the art train on the surface anyway compared to what's on offer now on that route :D
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2015
  4. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The dates given had always overlapped Thameslink by about a year, just Googled a few 2014 press releases to check. But Thameslink should be running down by then.

    IIRC back when Siemens withdrew from the Crossrail bidding it was foreseen by some that they would probably get this relatively small order, which is only about 20% the size of Crossrail in terms of vehicle equivalents...
     
  5. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    And if course Bombardier won the contract that had TfL involved in the decision making, one can draw one's own conclusion as to why Siemens withdrew...
     
  6. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    I suspect TOCs etc will always err on the side of no toilets as it saves the space of at least one DDA compliant loo per unit and the cleaning/emptying requirement. Currently the 455s do not have a loo so its par for the course. I cannot recall if places as far from London termini as Windsor is generally get trains with loos. I am guessing Windsor is currently served by 458s from Waterloo and the other Windsor station by 165s from Paddington or is it just a shuttle from Slough ?.
     
  7. JN114

    JN114 Member

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    Windsor & Eton Central gets a 165 (usually 2 car) shuttle from Slough to Windsor, through trains from Paddington ended early 2000s.
     
  8. Feathers44

    Feathers44 Member

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    Any idea why the purchase is in 5s if they intend to run in 10s?

    Is this just to allow for single unit use (i.e. 5 cars) at the weekends as they do with the 455s on the suburban routes round me?
     
  9. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    No toilets, no tables and wide gangways on metro and inner suburban trains is state of the art where a high volume of passengers and minimum dwell times are critical requirements.
     
  10. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    10 cars in peak, some fives off peak.

    One production for the 707s, think its four for the 700s.
     
  11. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    I should imagine it is for flexibility and anything longer than a 5-car unit is going to be "brave". Also means that if a piece of traction equipment fails then only half the 10-car train has to be taken out of service. I imagine a ten car unit would actually have more than one set of traction equipment otherwise it would not fit under the carriages. So there is built in redundancy there already. Just a waste of cab space - makes me think how many loos...!.

    EDIT :- Class377/5 beat me to it. /EDIT

    The Thameslink units are a whole 8-car and 12-car so it is possible though.
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2015
  12. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Could also be for maintenance...

    If they have 5 car exam roads and lifting roads (I assume they do for the 444s), for a fleet of 30, would you want to build massive new exam and lifting roads?
     
  13. Noddy

    Noddy Member

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    Surely having no toilets is just crazy though, and could involve cleaning up more mess, especially after Friday/Saturday evening trips. It is a 1 hour journey.
     
  14. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    Will these units suffer the same issues with not meeting the crashworthiness standards as the 700s, I wonder...?
     
  15. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    In practice, should we expect some Windsor trains to remain allocated 458/5? There will be 36 458/5s and the peak requirement on the Reading line isn't going to require all of them.

    The lack of toilet thing is a nonsense.

    If you are going to argue that trains to Windsor shouldn't have toilets because of peak crush loads you could extend that to say that Waterloo to Reading trains shouldn't have toilets as the crush loads inside Twickenham are as great on those as they are on Windsor services.

    Furthermore, these trains are used by families and other groups heading for Windsor or Thorpe Park who might also welcome a toilet.

    Justifying it on the basis of the 455 fleet isn't good either. They will come up for replacement in the next 20 years or so. The 707s might perpetuate the problem for another 50.
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2015
  16. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    I don't like to rely on my bladder for that long. The fact the doors open frequently (assuming a stopping service) will probably help must customers on a Friday night :roll:.
     
  17. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    It could be painful, stick your todger out and get it caught in the doors! :lol:
     
  18. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Member

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    The desiro city is built with a modular design to enable coaches to be added in the future as required. Perhaps this has been factored in with the future for extension to 10 car fixed formation with toileted coaches? Who knows.
     
  19. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    I have to agree toilets should be included as I have found that when I have got off at say Staines as an example after 9pm in the evening the toilets have been locked and I have had to wait another 40 plus minutes so that I could go to loo at home.

    I presume that the 458/5's would be used on both the Reading and Windsor routes after the toilets have closed at 6/7pm on most stations where available?
     
  20. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    And you should know by now after all of these years of having 458/0 on the Reading road, what state the toilets get into. A pig sty is cleaner!
     
  21. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    Couple of observations. I'm fairly surprised that the trains are being liveried in SWT colours and not a base white/grey given that the first ones are due to enter service around the time of the new franchise, which may no longer be SWT.

    Roger Ford in Modern Railways is convinced that the Wessex Capacity Upgrade is high on the possible list for the chop/heavy delay as a result of Peter Hendy's review, and that was before MML and TPE became "unpaused". This could mean that the Reading platform extensions and power supply upgrade do not happen, which means that the 458/5s cannot transfer.

    Where do the 707s go then, given that Waterloo P1-4 extensions (and WIT) are also part of the Wessex capacity upgrade? Isn't South eastern after additional rolling stock?
     
  22. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    The possibility of no power upgrades on the Ash Vale - Ascot & Virginia Water - Reading sections will cause NR & SWT serious grief, from both Reading line user groups & the dreaded "Camberley Society".

    It'll also mean that the 456's will have to stay on the Ascot branch and the 450's will have to stay on the Reading road. What they'll then do with the 458/5's will be a mystery unless of course they transfer them to other suburban duties like Woking Bay/Guildford (C) trains, although that will bring problems as well as they rotate to Chessington & Epsom/Bookham lines and the former doesn't have a strong enough power supply to take a 5 car! So there would have to be some rejigging of the timetable & workings.

    Also at least one or two depots would require training on 458/5s!
     
  23. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    Well if the 458/5s end up too long they could be reduced to four coaches and the spare coaches could be marshalled up into long rakes for use, for example, on some airport service or other :oops:.

    Brought to you by the lover of 442s so they are not going to be stuffed in the middle of 185s !.

    Seriously though there will end up being a surplus of decent EMUs at this rate. I suspect SWT will keep the 707s in favour the 458s which in turn might displace 455s and 456s if at all possible.
     
  24. 387star

    387star Established Member

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    Interesting never knew they ran them as through trains
     
  25. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Bearing in mind that DfT will surely get themselves involved again, they'll be reverting the 458s back to /0 formation as soon as Wimbledon depot have got any significant mpc values out of the /5s :lol:
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2015
  26. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    Same design. Soluation already found, no big deal unless you want to cause issues.

    Flexibility is key. Thameslink is different as four trips equals north peaks meaning splitting isn't actually sensible.
     
  27. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    True.
     
  28. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    The 458 toilets have been vile from the day they entered service and haven't even had a clean during the current "refurbishment". What doesn't help is the lack of tank emptying facilities at Staines and SWT's unwillingness to replenish the tanks through the day. They did so for a brief period a few years ago and that made a big difference.

    Having said all that, none of SWT's toilets are brilliant when compared to some other TOCs.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    10 car formations couldn't be used if Waterloo P1-4 don't get extended.

    Another solution may be to cancel the 707 order, with the assembled bodyshells, equipment and personnel used to accelerate the 700 construction programme.
     
  29. jcc

    jcc Member

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    Now that would be some political bombshell, which the Tories might not be able to handle alongside the Northern Powercut. I can already see the headlines, with the second half of your statement being used as the DfT "explaination".
     
  30. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    You't can't accelerate the 700 programme as its already accelerated. Any faster and you will need to accelerate the driver training programmes along NR infrastructure alterations (Haywards Heath platform extensions now under way for in example) quicker than planned, wrecking a lot of plans and will result in cancelled services worth diverts yanked out of turns to cope the extra workload. Nevertheless gonna happen.

    Also note the has been placed for the 707 so it's agreed to spend the money, they may get diverted like the 450/350 order but once ordered the trains will come. History proves that. Im sure 30x 5 cars for TPE Northern would go down a treat.
     

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