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Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

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AM9

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.... Im sure 30x 5 cars for TPE Northern would go down a treat.

Are you sure. There a howls of dissatisfaction here from some who think that 1/3, 2/3 doors are sacrilege for TPE, - give them trains with full width gangways as well and they will be running to the ECHR claiming that their human rights had been violated! :)
 
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Class377/5

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Are you sure. There a howls of dissatisfaction here from some who think that 1/3, 2/3 doors are sacrilege for TPE, - give them trains with full width gangways as well and they will be running to the ECHR claiming that their human rights had been violated! :)

There is always some people complaining :lol:
 

swt_passenger

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Looking at the unpainted body shell shown in the linked article in the original post, they really do have doors at the ⅓ and ⅔ positions, which is how they are usually described. But to me this is odd because with the wide internal gangways a better balance of door position to seats would surely have the doors at nearly ¼ and ¾ positions, like on a 450, which would make the distance between doors (especially as seen from within the train) more equidistant?
 

Domh245

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I suppose that there is an argument to be made that having a 1/3 distance between the doors, and a 2/3s via the gangway would encourage passengers to move down towards the gangway where there *should* be more standing space, than cramming into the centre section if done properly.
 

Midmat

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With the 707s not that far away (18 months), I'm confused about what the subsequent SWT stock reallocations actually are. Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread (if any!) which provides the answers? My understanding is currently as follows:

- 707s to all be delivered by Dec 2017 replacing 458/5 on Windsor lines.
- 458/5 to move to Reading line between May-Dec 2017 as 707s delivered although some 458/5s may need to stay on Windsor as only 30 x 707s vs 36 x 458/5
- 450s - are 30 on diagram on the Reading line at the moment? If so, are they all to be used for strengthening the mainline? That would be quite a lot of strengthening if so and doesn't help fill the gap below...
- 455/456 - At the moment used in various formations to provide mainly 8 carriage trains for suburban network. However, from December 2017 (at the latest), platforms 1-6 at waterloo will be extended and therefore the 456s will need to be used in formation with 2x 455. Producing a potential gap of c.48 carriages (24 x 456s used with 455 pairs) that have been withdrawn from other 455/456 formations. How will this gap be filled? I also think SWTs plan for a 10 carriage suburban railway is not going to work when they don't have enough 456s to run with all 455 pairs. Not sure though how many train diagrams there are for those used in/out of platforms 1-4 at waterloo currently.

Sorry for the rambling, it just seems that there will be A LOT of changes by December 2017 and I can't work out/nor find the answer of how it will all work out... :?
 

TEW

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5 of the displaced 450s go to the Guildford-Ascot Line which frees up 10 456s for strengthening 8-car 455 formations.
 

The Ham

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Also there are sometimes 8 car trains which are formed of a pair of 456's and a 455.
 

Peter Sarf

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Remember the 456s have only recently arrived so they will not really be a loss when they get absorbed by pairs of 455s.

I doubt there will be too much of a surplus of 450s as they and the 444s are currently quite heavily used. As I understand it the 444s, particularly, are at the limit of what the service provision deal with Siemens allows and SWT can pay less by using the 444s and 450s less. That is why 450s appear on services that one might expect to see 444s on. [ EDIT :- BUT see post 41. ] Its almost like SWT need some 442s !.
 
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TEW

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455s are also undergoing 2 programmes of work which mean severa units are out of action. There is the overhaul and PRM work at Bournemouth and the retractioning project too. Once these are completed 455s will be able to replace 2 456s in a 455+456+456 formation, with the freed up 456s being used to strengthen trains to 10-cars. You have 10 units from Guildford-Ascot, potentially 8 (4 pairs) replaced by 455s and 2 already used in 10-cars formation. That's 20 units, I'm not sure if there are any more diagrams than that?
 

swt_passenger

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A '10 car railway' on the main suburban side based on running 455+455+456 doesn't necessarily mean every possible service has to run as 10 car. I doubt that has ever been the aim, by timing the diagrams correctly they can still achieve a peak flow direction that is nearly all 10 car for an hour or two.

When considering trains on the 'Windsor side' that could be 707 operated it would also include Hounslow loop, and the Weybridges, as suggested above Reading wouldn't need all the 458/5s and currently wouldn't need 30 x 450s. The current fleet numbers aren't lined up neatly against specific routes, many of them use a mixture.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That is why 450s appear on services that one might expect to see 444s on.[/SIZE]

No, the reason 450s appear on some services that 444s 'might be expected on' is that a 12.450 has a much higher capacity than a 10.444. This has been explained numerous times, and I very much doubt you can provide firm evidence that there is some sort of issue with 444 excess mileage. SWT have denied this in web chats and forums, despite what has appeared in railway magazine articles.
 
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The Ham

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No, the reason 450s appear on some services that 444s 'might be expected on' is that a 12.450 has a much higher capacity than a 10.444. This has been explained numerous times, and I very much doubt you can provide firm evidence that there is some sort of issue with 444 excess mileage. SWT have denied this in web chats and forums, despite what has appeared in railway magazine articles.

There is probably just the perception of 450's being used more than 444's, but that isn't that surprising as there are nearly 3 times as many 450's and the 444's tend to be used on longer distance which mean that they are available for fewer diagrams as each end to end journey they do tends to be much longer.
 

TEW

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But equally you get 444s appearing on shorter services to Alton, Basingstoke and Haslemere where this makes sense for diagramming purposes. The December timetable change led to more 444s being diagrammed on those services in my experience.
 

Midmat

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Thanks all for responses:D

5 of the displaced 450s go to the Guildford-Ascot Line which frees up 10 456s for strengthening 8-car 455 formations.

Didn't know that, thank you. Am sure they will see that as an improvement!

Also there are sometimes 8 car trains which are formed of a pair of 456's and a 455.

Agreed but then how will the 2x 456 be filled when the 456s need to join 455 pairs. Seems a big reshuffle will happen.

Remember the 456s have only recently arrived so they will not really be a loss when they get absorbed by pairs of 455s.

I doubt there will be too much of a surplus of 450s as they and the 444s are currently quite heavily used. As I understand it the 444s, particularly, are at the limit of what the service provision deal with Siemens allows and SWT can pay less by using the 444s and 450s less. That is why 450s appear on services that one might expect to see 444s on. Its almost like SWT need some 442s !.

Yes, 456s have only just arrived but they seem to be mostly used in diagrams now (e.g they took over Guildford -Ascot to support strengthening elsewhere + 3 are used on 10 car fasts from Surbiton). The fact that they are not sitting spare is shown by occasional short formations.

455s are also undergoing 2 programmes of work which mean severa units are out of action. There is the overhaul and PRM work at Bournemouth and the retractioning project too. Once these are completed 455s will be able to replace 2 456s in a 455+456+456 formation, with the freed up 456s being used to strengthen trains to 10-cars. You have 10 units from Guildford-Ascot, potentially 8 (4 pairs) replaced by 455s and 2 already used in 10-cars formation. That's 20 units, I'm not sure if there are any more diagrams than that?


Didn't think about 455 re tractioning/other current upgrades though so yes, that will help. 18 trains arrive at Waterloo in the suburban side between 8 and 9am meaning if there are only 20 456s going to be used (3 already used on fasts), it is only going to be peak hour and nothing else (assume 1.5hr/2hrs before that same set comes into Waterloo again, I.e. can only help once in the peak). As delays currently build from about 7.30am due to congestion there's still going to be issues it seems. :(:(:( unless someone can work out where my numbers are wrong and they can do better than just 8-9am? Will also then be fun getting them in the exact right place for the evening peak hour.

Only other things I can think of are:

-458/5s take over the 3 10 car fasts from Surbiton which are currently 2x455+456, freeing up another 3.
-They steal some of the middle carriages from southern 455s when no one is looking. Refurbish then over the course of the next 3-5 years (swt contractors aren't the quickest). Stick them into 455s making extra slow 5 car 455s. Done. :roll::roll: yes, as above I basically have no idea still how it's going to work other than lots of changes... Interesting 18-24 months ahead...
 

Class377/5

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According to the new Modern Railways, there will be a mock of a 707 at Waterloo from the 4th as part of SWT 20th anniversary.
 

HarleyDavidson

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But equally you get 444s appearing on shorter services to Alton, Basingstoke and Haslemere where this makes sense for diagramming purposes. The December timetable change led to more 444s being diagrammed on those services in my experience.

That's to reduce the amount of miles they cover, due to MBM.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
455s are also undergoing 2 programmes of work which mean several units are out of action. There is the overhaul and PRM work at Bournemouth and the retractioning project too. Once these are completed 455s will be able to replace 2 456s in a 455+456+456 formation, with the freed up 456s being used to strengthen trains to 10-cars. You have 10 units from Guildford-Ascot, potentially 8 (4 pairs) replaced by 455s and 2 already used in 10-cars formation. That's 20 units, I'm not sure if there are any more diagrams than that?

For some odd reason 455's are cleared for Guildford - Ascot, but aren't currently permitted to be in passenger service on the route. ECS yes, PAX no.

I've been doing some enquires as why red 456's are restricted 15 mph on the up at Camberley & platform 4 at Guildford, yet to intent purposes are identical to the 455s. As yet no answer.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I've been doing some enquires as why red 456's are restricted 15 mph on the up at Camberley & platform 4 at Guildford, yet to intent purposes are identical to the 455s. As yet no answer.

456 vehicles are 70cm longer than those of the 455s; could it be an overhang issue with the platforms?
 

TEW

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We can't have 455s replacing 456s on the Guildford-Ascot line, that would make you far too happy!
 

HarleyDavidson

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Shouldn't do with Guildford, Camberley has a slight curve on the up, so it might well be the reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We can't have 455s replacing 456s on the Guildford-Ascot line, that would make you far too happy!

Nearly took a 442 to Waterloo via Aldershot once. Siggy said Ah, Ah, not today.

Anyway, let's get back on topic, before we get a ticking off.
 
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The Ham

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But equally you get 444s appearing on shorter services to Alton, Basingstoke and Haslemere where this makes sense for diagramming purposes. The December timetable change led to more 444s being diagrammed on those services in my experience.

True, which is why I said tend to.
 

Class 170101

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I doubt there will be too much of a surplus of 450s as they and the 444s are currently quite heavily used. As I understand it the 444s, particularly, are at the limit of what the service provision deal with Siemens allows and SWT can pay less by using the 444s and 450s less.

If its anything like other privatisation stock it will have mileage payment thresholds at which heavy maintenance is required. These come round the more frequently they are used and so more payments have to be made.

It wouldn't suprise me if 444s are just above a threshold with 450s not close to either end of threshold so the 450s mileage has gone up such as to push 444s below a particular threshold and therefore make a saving.
 

455driver

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If its anything like other privatisation stock it will have mileage payment thresholds at which heavy maintenance is required. These come round the more frequently they are used and so more payments have to be made.

It wouldn't suprise me if 444s are just above a threshold with 450s not close to either end of threshold so the 450s mileage has gone up such as to push 444s below a particular threshold and therefore make a saving.

That's about it really, but when you think about it a 450 on intensive stop/start Windsor side services will be working much harder than a 444 cruising down to Weymouth even though the mileage run by the 450 will be much less.
 

AM9

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That's about it really, but when you think about it a 450 on intensive stop/start Windsor side services will be working much harder than a 444 cruising down to Weymouth even though the mileage run by the 450 will be much less.

Not as much as it seems. Both the 444s and 445s have motor sets designed for 2700hp output but those motors on the 444s drag over 33% more weight than those on the 450s.
Things like brakes and opening doors may get more use per day but they are cheap compared with the traction equipment from the pickup shoes down to the driving wheels.
 

Peter Mugridge

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They must have applied a lot of red paint to make them longer than the green ones! (See HarleyD's post ;))

Class 455: 19.92m ( driving ) and 19.83m ( non driving* ) long.

Class 456: 20.61m long ( both )


*20.18m for the ex-508 trailers
 

Pumbaa

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Changes to the suspension as a result of capacity changes at refurb.
 

Bigfoot

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Changes to the suspension as a result of capacity changes at refurb.

We have a winner. Correct. There were issues with the lightness of the new interior. Ballast had to be added and suspension adjusted to compensate for the two extremes of crush loading and ecs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However this is now very much off topic...
 
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