Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[swt_passenger]

So what's happening with the 455s on the mainline side that have been displaced by 707s?

Nothing much AFAIAA. With the various internal cascades they are able to form far more 10 car trains formed 455/455/456 as originally planned. The overall 455, 456, 458 and 707 fleet is now sized to allow for 4 tph to Reading and Windsor from December. Perhaps overall utilisation is lower than it will eventually become.

Weren't there also suggestions that some 450 operated services would revert to 455s? Cant remember where I read that.

 

[lewisf]

Another thing. I thought that from 1st January it was now a requirement for new railway vehicles to display their full European Vehicle Number (EVN) but the 707s don’t have it, only the 6 digit coach and set numbers

 

[Bigfoot]

Another thing. I thought that from 1st January it was now a requirement for new railway vehicles to display their full European Vehicle Number (EVN) but the 707s don’t have it, only the 6 digit coach and set numbers

But they were already built before the 1st...

 

[dp21]

But they were already built before the 1st...

I also beleive it's subject to National Technical Rules and GB standards say that units which are only operating on GB rails don't need to display the full UIC number but need to be registered with it. Eurostars, on the other hand, do need to and do display it.

 

[D365]

I also beleive it's subject to National Technical Rules and GB standards say that units which are only operating on GB rails don't need to display the full UIC number but need to be registered with it.

Which makes sense, but I don't doubt in the future that ORR will be taking the ruling quite literally. They certainly did when it came to electrification clearances...

 

[lewisf]

But they were already built before the 1st...

This is probably the reason right here

 

[swt_passenger]

I also beleive it's subject to National Technical Rules and GB standards say that units which are only operating on GB rails don't need to display the full UIC number but need to be registered with it. Eurostars, on the other hand, do need to and do display it.

In a fairly recent discussion about EVNs, a few people reckoned that the previous dispensation had been removed in the very latest version of the rail group standard..

 

[dp21]

In a fairly recent discussion about EVNs, a few people reckoned that the previous dispensation had been removed in the very latest version of the rail group standard..

It's all quite confusing but I know the RIS says:

G 4.1.1 The OPE TSI (2015/995/EU) mandates the display of the EVN and VKM on all new vehicles and those existing vehicles that operate in international service

It is my understanding that as long as this is in place somewhere on the unit, they can display the GB Operational (TOPS) number on the ends of the unit as at present.

 

[D365]

The Class 700s display this number in the cab, do they not?

 

[swt_passenger]

The Class 700s display this number in the cab, do they not?

That was definitely the requirement of the previous group standard. The more recent debate is only about external markings.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Nothing much AFAIAA. With the various internal cascades they are able to form far more 10 car trains formed 455/455/456 as originally planned. The overall 455, 456, 458 and 707 fleet is now sized to allow for 4 tph to Reading and Windsor from December. Perhaps overall utilisation is lower than it will eventually become. Weren't there also suggestions that some 450 operated services would revert to 455s? Cant remember where I read that.

I have over the last few weeks seen several 10-car trains of two 707s on the Kingston loop and Shepperton services at various times of the day, and two turned up at New Malden a couple of weeks back when I was there on a rush-hour Hampton Court service. There are both eight-car and 10-car (two 455s and one 456) services on the Kingston loop and Shepperton services all through the day, with no apparent reason why this particular service has 10 whilst that particular service has eight. Yesterday I saw a 10-car train to Shepperton comprised of two 458s; I've not seen that before. Also the up Reading train I caught at Kingston (they are reversing at Twickenham and going around the loop) was two 458s, which is fairly uncommon.

 

[GW43125]

I have over the last few weeks seen several 10-car trains of two 707s on the Kingston loop and Shepperton services at various times of the day, and two turned up at New Malden a couple of weeks back when I was there on a rush-hour Hampton Court service. There are both eight-car and 10-car (two 455s and one 456) services on the Kingston loop and Shepperton services all through the day, with no apparent reason why this particular service has 10 whilst that particular service has eight. Yesterday I saw a 10-car train to Shepperton comprised of two 458s; I've not seen that before. Also the up Reading train I caught at Kingston (they are reversing at Twickenham and going around the loop) was two 458s, which is fairly uncommon.

Barnes-Vauxhall is closed weekends so the Reading trains divert via Kingston. On a weekday, 60% of reading trains are currently double 458s.

Shepperton and Kingston rounders are a mixture of 455s and 707s, these have been freed up by the Windsor suburban services not running, it allows better utilisation of stock.

 

[robbeech]

Still not sorted the displays out. Coach 4 of 10 is stoping at Clapham Junction next and coach 3 at Twickenham. This was heading to Norbiton.
A question I have on sdo and automatic announcements. One assumes it is not connected. For it announced that this carriage (4 of 10) has doors that would not open due to a short platform at Norbiton. And indeed despite there being a platform outside the doors were not useable. In the interest of safety, I would like to think that at the extremes of the train where there may not be a platform then the doors would not open but i am not filled with confidence here.

 

[TEW]

So the doors in the fourth coach didn't open at Norbiton? That sounds like a very strange fault. It is quite common for the PIS on the 707s to randomly declare that you need to move forward for the next station due to a short platform, despite there not being one, but I haven't ever seen the doors not open in carriages where they should do.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Still not sorted the displays out. Coach 4 of 10 is stoping at Clapham Junction next and coach 3 at Twickenham. This was heading to Norbiton. A question I have on sdo and automatic announcements. One assumes it is not connected. For it announced that this carriage (4 of 10) has doors that would not open due to a short platform at Norbiton. And indeed despite there being a platform outside the doors were not useable. In the interest of safety, I would like to think that at the extremes of the train where there may not be a platform then the doors would not open but i am not filled with confidence here.

So the doors in the fourth coach didn't open at Norbiton? That sounds like a very strange fault. It is quite common for the PIS on the 707s to randomly declare that you need to move forward for the next station due to a short platform, despite there not being one, but I haven't ever seen the doors not open in carriages where they should do.

I've not heard a 'short platform' announcement for Norbiton, but I have heard one for Strawberry Hill when I was on a 455-455-456 train, stating that the doors in the last carriage would not open. As it was, I alighted at Strawberry Hill and the doors did open in the last carriage. As far as I can tell, all the platforms on the Kingston loop have been lengthened to take 10-car trains. I have a vague feeling that the platforms at Isleworth on the Hounslow loop can't take 10-car trains, but I'm not certain about that.

 

[SevenEightNine]

I have a vague feeling that the platforms at Isleworth on the Hounslow loop can't take 10-car trains, but I'm not certain about that.

Yes, Hounslow and Syon Lane take 8 coaches maximum. Isleworth takes 7 or 8, depending on stock used. The remaining Hounslow loop stations are all long enough for 10 cars (I think) but that still doesn't stop the 707 PIS announcing short platforms from time to time.

 

[GW43125]

So the doors in the fourth coach didn't open at Norbiton? That sounds like a very strange fault. It is quite common for the PIS on the 707s to randomly declare that you need to move forward for the next station due to a short platform, despite there not being one, but I haven't ever seen the doors not open in carriages where they should do.

What the PIS thinks the train is doing and what it actually does are two different things. I've no idea where it gets the duff information from however (I was once told to move forward from the third carriage rolling into Chertsey- a 10 car platform!) but the actual number of doors released is fed back to the system as the train comes over the ASDO beacon whilst running into the station. If no beacon is detected, it drops to "default condition" and only releases doors on the front four carriages (450/458/707-it's 3 on a 444).

 

[The Ham]

What the PIS thinks the train is doing and what it actually does are two different things. I've no idea where it gets the duff information from however (I was once told to move forward from the third carriage rolling into Chertsey- a 10 car platform!) but the actual number of doors released is fed back to the system as the train comes over the ASDO beacon whilst running into the station. If no beacon is detected, it drops to "default condition" and only releases doors on the front four carriages (450/458/707-it's 3 on a 444).

I'm not sure if the fault has been fixed but for a long time approaching Farnborough (12 coach long platform) from London it would announce (even on a 4 coach train) on the 450's that you would have to move forward due to it being a short platform.

 

[TEW]

What the PIS thinks the train is doing and what it actually does are two different things. I've no idea where it gets the duff information from however (I was once told to move forward from the third carriage rolling into Chertsey- a 10 car platform!) but the actual number of doors released is fed back to the system as the train comes over the ASDO beacon whilst running into the station. If no beacon is detected, it drops to "default condition" and only releases doors on the front four carriages (450/458/707-it's 3 on a 444).

That's why I was surprised that the poster above reported the doors in 4th coach not opening at Norbiton, even in a fault condition they should open.

 

[robbeech]

That’s why I was confused. To be perfectly honest it might have been operator error. I wasn’t getting on or off there, but someone was going to get off, and heard the message so moved forwards. Then someone tried to board through those doors and they didn’t open (I didn’t physically see them press the button but they were I a position to be able to do so) but they then ran to another door that was also closed and pressed the button to open them (thus perhaps eliminating the possibility that they were unaware of how to operate them).
The doors had been used at other stations and were used afterwards

 

[jnjkerbin]

Was on a Class 707 today which was claiming that the next station was Clapham Junction (it wasn't) that the train was going to Hounslow (it wasn't) and that I was in coach 3 (I wasn't), and also still uses the godawful Window '98 text to speech announcements. Why are there still so many issues after so many months in service? It's not as if a PIS is a revolutionary new piece of technology for a train. It does make you wonder just how hard it is to do something like this that has been done many times before.

 

[spark001uk]

Was on a Class 707 today which was claiming that the next station was Clapham Junction (it wasn't) that the train was going to Hounslow (it wasn't) and that I was in coach 3 (I wasn't), and also still uses the godawful Window '98 text to speech announcements. Why are there still so many issues after so many months in service? It's not as if a PIS is a revolutionary new piece of technology for a train. It does make you wonder just how hard it is to do something like this that has been done many times before.

Is this not just a PIS setting error by the crew? Or is it actually a software problem?
Personally I've witnessed just as many of SWRs other classes with similar problems.

 

[samuelmorris]

The fact that they can't get two coupled units to behave like a 10-car is a bit suspect. I'm not sure it should be showing 'coach 4 of 5' if you're on a 10-car. I know there's no through gangway but I still consider that info misleading. Otherwise I quite enjoyed my first ride on a 707 this week. It's nice to be on a clean and tidy Desiro City again unlike the moving dustbins that Thameslink operate.

 

[spark001uk]

The fact that they can't get two coupled units to behave like a 10-car is a bit suspect. I'm not sure it should be showing 'coach 4 of 5' if you're on a 10-car. I know there's no through gangway but I still consider that info misleading. Otherwise I quite enjoyed my first ride on a 707 this week. It's nice to be on a clean and tidy Desiro City again unlike the moving dustbins that Thameslink operate.

Wait til they're near on a couple of years old like the 700s.

 

[samuelmorris]

No, even brand new 700s are filthy. As long as they're more than, say, a week old. I won't start that debate again but it feels as if 700s are cleaned once every 6-12 months. Maybe the 707s will be just as bad and I got lucky with 707004, SWR certainly don't deal with graffiti as well as SWT during the current epidemic but I refuse to believe any TOC would have as little pride as GTR.

 

[physics34]

No, even brand new 700s are filthy. As long as they're more than, say, a week old. I won't start that debate again but it feels as if 700s are cleaned once every 6-12 months. Maybe the 707s will be just as bad and I got lucky with 707004, SWR certainly don't deal with graffiti as well as SWT during the current epidemic but I refuse to believe any TOC would have as little pride as GTR.

just short staffing on GTRs part.

 

[samuelmorris]

Precisely, so I'm hoping SWR will be better for it, despite my otherwise low opinion of them (thus far).

 

[GW43125]

Is this not just a PIS setting error by the crew? Or is it actually a software problem?
Personally I've witnessed just as many of SWRs other classes with similar problems.

I spoke to a guard about it, it’s a known software issue that keeps getting reported but management don’t care and won’t spend the money because they’re binning them in a couple of years.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I spoke to a guard about it, it’s a known software issue that keeps getting reported but management don’t care and won’t spend the money because they’re binning them in a couple of years.

Which seems such a waste, what are we having after the 707s?

 

[Domh245]

Class 701 Aventras - 60x 10 car units and 30x 5 car units.