Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[hwl]

So do we now have any idea where these Class 707s will be going once they are replaced? Not into storage i hope.

The Williams review has delayed the next bout of franchising so nothing is clear.
The 707s are an interesting spec. to a lower level than DfT's current metro requirements (See SW and SE ITTs).
Hence some storage and re-engineering to some extent (the least being fitting toilets).

 

[supervc-10]

They were designed for toilets to be an easy fit though right?

Whack a panto on the top (as the first couple had for testing) and there are probably a fair few places they could be useful. If (and it's a very, very, big if) the 769s end up working, they could potentially be sent up north releasing some more 319s for conversion (perhaps with a car removed if shorter platforms are a problem, which would help with their underpoweredness!)

 

[Goldfish62]

They fail DfT's metro passenger stock requirements for Southeastern so very unlikely as a permanent measure.
LNWR already have new stock on order (and the 350s from TPE coming) and more GN services will be going over to Thameslink and more 717 stock has been ordered than 313 so enough to up the Moorgate service when the signalling is sorted.

The Southeastern franchise competition has been cancelled. I would be most surprised if the DfT's over-prescriptive rolling stock specification survived the Williams Review and thus hopefully the 707s could be accommodated either on Southeastern or Southern.

 

[hwl]

The Southeastern franchise competition has been cancelled. I would be most surprised if the DfT's over-prescriptive rolling stock specification survived the Williams Review and thus hopefully the 707s could be accommodated either on Southeastern or Southern.

Indeed but lots has been learned from poorly spec'd stock and plenty now encapsulated in to the rolling stock guidelines with ATOC + ROSCOs and RSSB standards. Throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting again with a clean sheet is unlikely.

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed but lots has been learned from poorly spec'd stock and plenty now encapsulated in to the rolling stock guidelines with ATOC + ROSCOs and RSSB standards. Throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting again with a clean sheet is unlikely.

How much do the 707s actually vary from the DfT specification? The one tender of the interior of a 701 looks pretty much identical to the 700/707/717 configuration.

 

[RealTrains07]

They were designed for toilets to be an easy fit though right?

Whack a panto on the top (as the first couple had for testing) and there are probably a fair few places they could be useful. If (and it's a very, very, big if) the 769s end up working, they could potentially be sent up north releasing some more 319s for conversion (perhaps with a car removed if shorter platforms are a problem, which would help with their underpoweredness!)

Could run as 5 car surely since they have ASDO right?

 

[samuelmorris]

How much do the 707s actually vary from the DfT specification? The one tender of the interior of a 701 looks pretty much identical to the 700/707/717 configuration.

As far as I know they're identical apart from having extra grabrails for standees and toilets, that's it. Same seating layout, same brand of seat, etc. PIS will probably be similar but in Aventra format.

 

[RealTrains07]

As far as I know they're identical apart from having extra grabrails for standees and toilets, that's it. Same seating layout, same brand of seat, etc. PIS will probably be similar but in Aventra format.

PIS is exactly the same as the 700s however with different voice and differences in the way announcements are done etc

 

[samuelmorris]

PIS is exactly the same as the 700s however with different voice and differences in the way announcements are done etc

You're referring to the 707s though, I was commenting on how the PIS on the 701s would differ from the 707.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You're referring to the 707s though, I was commenting on how the PIS on the 701s would differ from the 707.

The 707s have Acapela Rachel and the system sounds dreadful. I hope they don’t retain it for the 701s.

 

[Mikey C]

Southeastern have 147 4 car Networkers and 43 2 car units (and 36 5 car 376s) that's a massive fleet to replace especially if you want some expansion, so there will have to be a large fleet of new trains built even if the 707s were moved over (which I doubt)

 

[Mikey C]

As far as I know they're identical apart from having extra grabrails for standees and toilets, that's it. Same seating layout, same brand of seat, etc. PIS will probably be similar but in Aventra format.

I moaned last week in this thread about the 2 + 1 sections, which has less seating but no extra grab rails so are really a complete waste of space!

I'm sure I read here that there's an issue with the Desiro City that the roof isn't strong enough to have extra grab rails coming down, or something like that?

 

[samuelmorris]

I moaned last week in this thread about the 2 + 1 sections, which has less seating but no extra grab rails so are really a complete waste of space!

I'm sure I read here that there's an issue with the Desiro City that the roof isn't strong enough to have extra grab rails coming down, or something like that?

It's less the strength, rather that there's some equipment in the roof that requires access panels for, so you can't mount grabrails to those.

 

[hwl]

I moaned last week in this thread about the 2 + 1 sections, which has less seating but no extra grab rails so are really a complete waste of space!

I'm sure I read here that there's an issue with the Desiro City that the roof isn't strong enough to have extra grab rails coming down, or something like that?

Indeed one of the problems is that the is lots of electrical equipment and cabling in the void between the ceiling & roof and many of the ceiling panels are hinged to allow easy access to the equipment (especially in the vestibules). The (hinged) panels aren't strong enough be used to mount handrail /grab holds on and having them mounted to a fitting on ceiling would involve moving/changing equipment and the panels having to be changed to non hinged and several smaller ones for every existing panel. Hence requiring more hand holds is a significant issue. This was recognised as an issue before the first 700 even arrived in the UK and vestibule loadings in the 700s aren't as high as hoped. Hence DfT have learnt lessons and modified future specifications (evidence based policy making in action). different seat back grab holds probably in order too.

Some of the other issues have also been done to death in the big 700 thread, namely the lack of seat spacing between adjacent seats and the car side for the window seat and the heating duct, that end up in seat passengers and their feet ending up encroaching on the space in the "corridor" and standees hence a simple solutions around seats effectively requiring sufficient the foot space aligned under the actual seat, the effect thus requiring space for an arm (but not necessarily an arm) between the window seats and car sides.

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed one of the problems is that the is lots of electrical equipment and cabling in the void between the ceiling & roof and many of the ceiling panels are hinged to allow easy access to the equipment (especially in the vestibules). The (hinged) panels aren't strong enough be used to mount handrail /grab holds on and having them mounted to a fitting on ceiling would involve moving/changing equipment and the panels having to be changed to non hinged and several smaller ones for every existing panel. Hence requiring more hand holds is a significant issue. This was recognised as an issue before the first 700 even arrived in the UK and vestibule loadings in the 700s aren't as high as hoped. Hence DfT have learnt lessons and modified future specifications (evidence based policy making in action). different seat back grab holds probably in order too.

Some of the other issues have also been done to death in the big 700 thread, namely the lack of seat spacing between adjacent seats and the car side for the window seat and the heating duct, that end up in seat passengers and their feet ending up encroaching on the space in the "corridor" and standees hence a simple solutions around seats effectively requiring sufficient the foot space aligned under the actual seat, the effect thus requiring space for an arm (but not necessarily an arm) between the window seats and car sides.

Seems a bit careless to design a train where grab handles can't be hung from the ceiling, it's hardly an unusual requirement for a commuter train

 

[hwl]

Seems a bit careless to design a train where grab handles can't be hung from the ceiling, it's hardly an unusual requirement for a commuter train

Exactly hence the DfT (and other's view) that this was bit silly and now specify it (as LU do it isn't fanciful or extravagant but a basic requirement).
Passing the parcel on unsuitable stock will happen less in the future as the 3 original ROSCOs aren't in control as much, the 707 were the last order of the old era.

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed one of the problems is that the is lots of electrical equipment and cabling in the void between the ceiling & roof and many of the ceiling panels are hinged to allow easy access to the equipment (especially in the vestibules). The (hinged) panels aren't strong enough be used to mount handrail /grab holds on and having them mounted to a fitting on ceiling would involve moving/changing equipment and the panels having to be changed to non hinged and several smaller ones for every existing panel. Hence requiring more hand holds is a significant issue. This was recognised as an issue before the first 700 even arrived in the UK and vestibule loadings in the 700s aren't as high as hoped. Hence DfT have learnt lessons and modified future specifications (evidence based policy making in action). different seat back grab holds probably in order too.

Some of the other issues have also been done to death in the big 700 thread, namely the lack of seat spacing between adjacent seats and the car side for the window seat and the heating duct, that end up in seat passengers and their feet ending up encroaching on the space in the "corridor" and standees hence a simple solutions around seats effectively requiring sufficient the foot space aligned under the actual seat, the effect thus requiring space for an arm (but not necessarily an arm) between the window seats and car sides.

What's wrong with mounting the handrails from the luggage racks as with the 458/5s? As with the 700/707s they couldn't be mounted from the ceiling so this simple solution was adopted.

 

[Aqua97]

The Southeastern franchise competition has been cancelled. I would be most surprised if the DfT's over-prescriptive rolling stock specification survived the Williams Review and thus hopefully the 707s could be accommodated either on Southeastern or Southern.

David Statham visited one of our depots and said he was going to try and bring the 707's to southeastern. However now that the franchise competition has been cancelled who knows...

 

[Goldfish62]

David Statham visited one of our depots and said he was going to try and bring the 707's to southeastern. However now that the franchise competition has been cancelled who knows...

As it is the 707s could be staying a bit longer as SWR are considering re-ordering the departure of the rolling stock being displaced by the 701s.

 

[Bigfoot]

As it is the 707s could be staying a bit longer as SWR are considering re-ordering the departure of the rolling stock being displaced by the 701s.

Especially with light of recent issues found with 455/6 & 458. Mind you a 707 also had issues yesterday...

 

[Goldfish62]

Especially with light of recent issues found with 455/6 & 458. Mind you a 707 also had issues yesterday...

What are the issues with 455/6 and 458 out interest?

 

[Railperf]

I noted with interest that according to Modern Railways September 2019 edition, the 707's are Britain's most reliable trains. And compared to Bombardiers recent reliability figures for its late 345 and 710 Aventura's, why would any operator ditch the 707's for those? Seems crazy!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You know very well why. For a uniform fleet and to meet franchise commitments of a toilet in each train.

 

[Bigfoot]

I noted with interest that according to Modern Railways September 2019 edition, the 707's are Britain's most reliable trains. And compared to Bombardiers recent reliability figures for its late 345 and 710 Aventura's, why would any operator ditch the 707's for those? Seems crazy!

They don't meet the franchise requirements... Simple.

 

[superalbs]

I noted with interest that according to Modern Railways September 2019 edition, the 707's are Britain's most reliable trains. And compared to Bombardiers recent reliability figures for its late 345 and 710 Aventura's, why would any operator ditch the 707's for those? Seems crazy!

Would that be most reliable new train in the country, or most reliable train in the country altogether?

 

[infobleep]

They don't meet the franchise requirements... Simple.

Any reason to believe the replacement trains won't be reliable, once teething issues are resolved?

 

[Railperf]

You know very well why. For a uniform fleet and to meet franchise commitments of a toilet in each train.

Are you serious there are no toilets aboard a 707? wow I honestly did not know. I haven't yet seen one in the flesh - never mind travelled on one. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Bigfoot]

Any reason to believe the replacement trains won't be reliable, once teething issues are resolved?

I didn't suggest that they wouldn't be. Plus Wimbledon has a habit of nailing reliable traction, hopefully first group will continue to support their abilities, though I fear they will not.

 

[43096]

Would that be most reliable new train in the country, or most reliable train in the country altogether?

New train.

We’ve been through this before.......

 

[Goldfish62]

I didn't suggest that they wouldn't be. Plus Wimbledon has a habit of nailing reliable traction, hopefully first group will continue to support their abilities, though I fear they will not.

Well, either First are indeed supporting Wimbledon or the depot didn't get the message, judging by the superb reliability the 707s are developing