Class 710 LO

[rebmcr]

The revised LO timetable with two extra trains in the peaks each way between Stratford and Willesden Jcn on the NLL began this morning, hitch-free so far.

Is that using stock freed-up from the Watford DC?

 

[OvergroundAndy]

Is that using stock freed-up from the Watford DC?

Yes. The 10 TPH takes 4 378s from the former Watford DC allocation whilst the 2 extra circuits for 4 TPH on the Watford DC take the other 2.

Therefore the number of 378s required for the NLL/WLL and DC remains the same as the previous service when it was 8 TPH on the NLL/WLL and 3 TPH on the Watford DC lines (25 units plus one standby).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So after a few 710/1's have entered traffic there seems to be a hiatus in getting anymore into use on the Watfords let alone WA

 

[OvergroundAndy]

So after a few 710/1's have entered traffic there seems to be a hiatus in getting anymore into use on the Watfords let alone WA

710103 and 105 of the WA allocation are accepted for service and have been technically covering for 710256 and 259 on the Barking line, which are the last two of the original batch of 710/2s (256 - 269) that have not been in service. This gives the nominal 14 to cover 12 diagrams (6 GOB/6 DC) and 1 spare and 1 maintenance. If there are not 12 available it will be a DC diagram that reverts to a Class 378. In additional there are still a few DC line drivers to train up.

710108 and 119 were used as an 8 car PTI test train last week on the Enfield/Cheshunt line (I was on it). This was the first use of them as an 8 car on the network, which is the main outstanding issue to getting them in service on the WA. Progress is being made and there are a few more tweaks to be made on the software to enable 8 car passenger operation.

The next PTI test train is booked in early January to test the remaining platforms and WA driver training should start in the new year.

 

[Class 170101]

710108 and 119 were used as an 8 car PTI test train last week on the Enfield/Cheshunt line (I was on it). This was the first use of them as an 8 car on the network, which is the main outstanding issue to getting them in service on the WA. Progress is being made and there are a few more tweaks to be made on the software to enable 8 car passenger operation.

The next PTI test train is booked in early January to test the remaining platforms and WA driver training should start in the new year.

How far would you say it is to go between the test train and 8 car passenger service running starting up?

 

[20atthemagnet]

How far would you say it is to go between the test train and 8 car passenger service running starting up?

The first passenger services are still on course for beginning of the year, subject to the PTI mentioned above being ok. But as it stands the trains are fine to run as either 8 or 4, The issues remain around the coupling and uncoupling procedure itself.

Regardless of the software updates, if all is ok from the PTI there will be a 710 on WA within 1-2 months. If its an 8 it just won’t split.

 

[OvergroundAndy]

The first passenger services are still on course for beginning of the year, subject to the PTI mentioned above being ok. But as it stands the trains are fine to run as either 8 or 4, The issues remain around the coupling and uncoupling procedure itself.

Regardless of the software updates, if all is ok from the PTI there will be a 710 on WA within 1-2 months. If its an 8 it just won’t split.

The first passenger services are still on course for beginning of the year, subject to the PTI mentioned above being ok. But as it stands the trains are fine to run as either 8 or 4, The issues remain around the coupling and uncoupling procedure itself.

Regardless of the software updates, if all is ok from the PTI there will be a 710 on WA within 1-2 months. If its an 8 it just won’t split.

The first driver training courses will not incorporate coupling/uncoupling when they start next month. They will have to be done as an add on when ARL accept the units for 8 car passenger operation, authorisation has only been given for West Anglia ECS driver training only.

It is still a software issue in regards to the coupling, and a new software drop is planned to try and sort the remaining issues very soon.

The next PTI run will attempt to finish off the platforms in the 2nd week in January. Anything outstanding (and minor) could be checked on training runs where possible.

If I were a betting man I would say early February for a soft introduction in passenger service, that could change either way depending on progress.

 

[20atthemagnet]

Dont worry I know

Feb is spot on. There will be both 8 and 4 cars in the training. So it looks like this might actually be happening. West Anglia passengers wont know what hit them

 

[D365]

West Anglia passengers wont know what hit them

Is that good or bad?!

 

[theking]

I can't wait it will just be complaints galore.
Too cold.
Hard seats.
Longitudinal.
Door alarms too loud.
Not enough Seats.

I know they're old but don't the 317's have ex first class with tables? They're in for a shock with the bare bones overground interior of the 710'a

 

[20atthemagnet]

Is that good or bad?!

They looked mighty underwhelmed when the demonstrator was in Chingford...

I can't wait it will just be complaints galore.
Too cold.
Hard seats.
Longitudinal.
Door alarms too loud.
Not enough Seats.

I know they're old but don't the 317's have ex first class with tables? They're in for a shock with the bare bones overground interior of the 710'a

This x100...The fight for those seats in the morning is something out of this world....The Enfield/Cheshunt passengers are pretty laid back. That coupled with the surge in passengers through Seven Sisters I see the 710s going down well... The Chingford line on the other hand...

 

[OvergroundAndy]

Dont worry I know

Feb is spot on. There will be both 8 and 4 cars in the training. So it looks like this might actually be happening. West Anglia passengers wont know what hit them

Standing room only........

 

[Ethano92]

Interesting how great Northern, Overground and GA all through that area had 3+2.

Greater Anglia will continue to have relativley disliked, cramped 3+2 with no standing room on their 720s, Overground has gone to longitudinal. Suddenly the compromise of 2+2 on great northerns 717s with ironing boards may appeal to many more than people thought. All lea valley line routes are absolutely short enough for Longitudinal seating, especially the line to Chingford with it being the equivalent of travelling to Buckhurst Hill on the neighbouring Central line.

I will however empathise after realising there's nowhere to hide from the cold that pours in every time the doors open on both 710s and 345s. When the 345s were first introduced the doors closed after seemingly no more than 3 seconds of inactivity but this seems to have been extended to much longer since alongside the 710s. Nevertheless they're still a definite upgrade for a metro route, the people of Bruce Grove and Clapton will certainly love them.

 

[Railperf]

Interesting how great Northern, Overground and GA all through that area had 3+2.

Greater Anglia will continue to have relativley disliked, cramped 3+2 with no standing room on their 720s, Overground has gone to longitudinal. Suddenly the compromise of 2+2 on great northerns 717s with ironing boards may appeal to many more than people thought. All lea valley line routes are absolutely short enough for Longitudinal seating, especially the line to Chingford with it being the equivalent of travelling to Buckhurst Hill on the neighbouring Central line.

I will however empathise after realising there's nowhere to hide from the cold that pours in every time the doors open on both 710s and 345s. When the 345s were first introduced the doors closed after seemingly no more than 3 seconds of inactivity but this seems to have been extended to much longer since alongside the 710s. Nevertheless they're still a definite upgrade for a metro route, the people of Bruce Grove and Clapton will certainly love them.

There are a few bays of 2+2 seating on the 345's - much nicer to sit on the longitudinal seating. And a full window pane too to accompany them.

 

[samuelmorris]

There are a few bays of 2+2 seating on the 345's - much nicer to sit on the longitudinal seating. And a full window pane too to accompany them.

Indeed, I make a beeline for them, but with only 64 such seats on a 7-car unit, they aren't easy to come by!

 

[transmanche]

Indeed, I make a beeline for them, but with only 64 such seats on a 7-car unit, they aren't easy to come by!

Although, I believe that increases to 96 seats on the 9-car units. (96 out of 454 seats, so a bit more than a fifth of all seats.)

 

[samuelmorris]

Although, I believe that increases to 96 seats on the 9-car units. (96 out of 454 seats, so a bit more than a fifth of all seats.)

Yes it does, which will certainly improve matters!

 

[ashkeba]

Although, I believe that increases to 96 seats on the 9-car units. (96 out of 454 seats, so a bit more than a fifth of all seats.)

454 seats in 9 cars is going to be a shock compared to 636 in 8 with 315s.

 

[OvergroundMatt]

454 seats in 9 cars is going to be a shock compared to 636 in 8 with 315s.

These comments clearly come from people who don’t travel on these lines. Morning / evening peak services are crush loaded in and out of Liverpool St.

I’m sure the reaction will be mixed. But it won’t be the universal rejection that you predict.

 

[samuelmorris]

These comments clearly come from people who don’t travel on these lines. Morning / evening peak services are crush loaded in and out of Liverpool St.

I’m sure the reaction will be mixed. But it won’t be the universal rejection that you predict.

This. In any of the zone 3 stations, when a 345 turns up, you can board the train. When it's a pair of 315s, you often can't. That's the difference extra capacity makes. Yes it sucks for people who are on the border of seating capacity where they may have got a seat before, but not now, but on the whole, extra standing capacity is clearly what's needed over this side. GWML-side, however, may be a different story.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This. In any of the zone 3 stations, when a 345 turns up, you can board the train. When it's a pair of 315s, you often can't. That's the difference extra capacity makes. Yes it sucks for people who are on the border of seating capacity where they may have got a seat before, but not now, but on the whole, extra standing capacity is clearly what's needed over this side. GWML-side, however, may be a different story.

My take is the middle seats of the 3 seat is never fully occupied on a 315 or any other 3+2 train ive commuted on over the last 40 years until the train is crush loaded. Even on the 700's the lack of an armrest is a deterrent to use both seats if an oversize person is already in occupation but at least standing is generally reasonable.

 

[ijmad]

My take is the middle seats of the 3 seat is never fully occupied on a 315 or any other 3+2 train ive commuted on over the last 40 years until the train is crush loaded. Even on the 700's the lack of an armrest is a deterrent to use both seats if an oversize person is already in occupation but at least standing is generally reasonable.

There are a lot more oversize people than 40 years ago

 

[20atthemagnet]

A 2nd 710 Should be delivered to Chingford next week, with Driver training soon after. The ball is rolling it seems.

 

[Class 170101]

A 2nd 710 Should be delivered to Chingford next week, with Driver training soon after. The ball is rolling it seems.

Will these be 2 units operting together or as two training trips each unit on their own?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Theres 14 daily class 3Uxx schedules in RTT for T-F next week shown as 710 between Enfield Tn and London Fields with one extended to Liv St a1134

eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F24649/2020-01-14/detailed

 

[Railperf]

Interesting how great Northern, Overground and GA all through that area had 3+2.

Greater Anglia will continue to have relativley disliked, cramped 3+2 with no standing room on their 720s, Overground has gone to longitudinal. Suddenly the compromise of 2+2 on great northerns 717s with ironing boards may appeal to many more than people thought. All lea valley line routes are absolutely short enough for Longitudinal seating, especially the line to Chingford with it being the equivalent of travelling to Buckhurst Hill on the neighbouring Central line.

I will however empathise after realising there's nowhere to hide from the cold that pours in every time the doors open on both 710s and 345s. When the 345s were first introduced the doors closed after seemingly no more than 3 seconds of inactivity but this seems to have been extended to much longer since alongside the 710s. Nevertheless they're still a definite upgrade for a metro route, the people of Bruce Grove and Clapton will certainly love them.

The 345s are a good replacement for the 315s. But i do like the fact 345s have some bays with face-to-face seating. So it is a shame the 710s are solely longtitudinal seating!

 

[class717]

710/1s for the Lee valley lines have forward and back facing seating similar to the 345s I believe

 

[samuelmorris]

710/1s for the Lee valley lines have forward and back facing seating similar to the 345s I believe

Incorrect - they were originally specified to have this, but that was changed before production to be a common fleet of all-longitudinal.

 

[class717]

Incorrect - they were originally specified to have this, but that was changed before production to be a common fleet of all-longitudinal.

Oh, thanks for the info. Any idea why? Journey times not long enough (even though some would be comparable to 345s)?

 

[samuelmorris]

Oh, thanks for the info. Any idea why? Journey times not long enough (even though some would be comparable to 345s)?

I believe perceived capacity issues - the fleet size is not expanding (31 trains being replaced with 31) so the only additional capacity the line will get is by increasing the capacity of the units themselves - all-longitudinal allows a higher total passenger capacity, even if that means most are standing.