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Class 710 LO

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td97

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The Northern CAF Class 331 will be the baseline to compare against as it's also a completely new product to the UK. Testing seems to be more promising than this 710 farce too.
Contracts were announced on
Northern 331: January 22 2016
LO 710: June 19 2015
Meaning CAF have had 7 months fewer.
Passenger approval today granted for CAF 331.
So a company with no recent experience of introducing electric rolling stock on the UK network can do it faster and more seamlessly than the biggest EMU supplier of the last decade.
 

Railperf

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Passenger approval today granted for CAF 331.
So a company with no recent experience of introducing electric rolling stock on the UK network can do it faster and more seamlessly than the biggest EMU supplier of the last decade.
How long since the first units were built and ready for testing?
 

hwl

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Passenger approval today granted for CAF 331.
So a company with no recent experience of introducing electric rolling stock on the UK network can do it faster and more seamlessly than the biggest EMU supplier of the last decade.
The big difference is that CAF are supplying units with an existing computer system not new one. The CAF TCMS is now the oldest being supplied for a current stock design which suggest they might have to think about a new TCMS at some point.
 

332 > 444

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The 717s are practically approved for driver training and will definitely come into service before the 710s, heck I'll even bet the Stadlers won't take long and will be in service not too long after the 710s start rolling out.

One thing I forget is that they will also have AC only stock for the WA Inners, but they have adequate stock unlike the GOBLIN.
 

Wivenswold

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It's 2 months until the Stadlers start to enter service. I'd say there's virtually no chance of seeing a 710 in service by then.
 

RealTrains07

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When has bombardier ever been actually reliable?? They are overworked with little time between making trains to Fix things that go wrong. Think they have bitten kore than they can chew with this new aventra platform :{
 

samuelmorris

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When has bombardier ever been actually reliable?? They are overworked with little time between making trains to Fix things that go wrong. Think they have bitten kore than they can chew with this new aventra platform :{
They haven't exactly got far yet - most of the 345s have been built now but not all of them and the rate at which they've been required is very minimal due to Crossrail delays, so they've been in no rush. The 710 order isn't exactly enormous either. The big orders are the 720s and 701s which they've barely even started, I think one or two units of the former exist and that's literally it at this point. Only once they have the 710s sorted are they likely to start building the next fleets in earnest, which is a fair approach, but nonetheless, these delays are very little to do with manufacturing capacity - it's simply that the Aventra has taken a lot longer to get working as an entity than Bombardier anticipated.
 

aswilliamsuk

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I noticed in RAIL this week that - apparently - the docs have done to the ORR for potential approval of the 710s. Which would be a remarkable step forward if approval is finally given.
 
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I noticed in RAIL this week that - apparently - the docs have done to the ORR for potential approval of the 710s. Which would be a remarkable step forward if approval is finally given.
How soon would approval normally take after documentation being submitted? And how soon after that could they enter service? Are they fully tested on the GOBLIN?
 

plcd1

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How soon would approval normally take after documentation being submitted? And how soon after that could they enter service? Are they fully tested on the GOBLIN?

This doesn't really answer your questions but 710s seem to be out every weekday morning on the GOBLIN at the moment. One shuttles back and forth from G Oak to Barking and then returns to Willesden around lunchtime. Sometimes there are also runs from Willesden to Barking and return but these have been less prevalent of late. Now there must be some purpose to these runs - I assume it is some form of driver familiarisation otherwise why bother? In terms of "testing" on the GOBLIN then there have been a decent number of runs of late. If drivers are now being familiarised on the 710s on the GOBLIN then I assume that's an attempt to reduce the interval before trains could be put into service if / when ORR say yes.

There are still regular WCML overnight runs - I assume this is mileage accumulation given they seem to thrash up and down at speed.

TfL are sat in front of London Travelwatch today about issues concerning transport in Barking. The GOBLIN is on the agenda so it's possible some news might emerge later today but don't hold your breath.
 
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This doesn't really answer your questions but 710s seem to be out every weekday morning on the GOBLIN at the moment. .

Thanks for the info! Very interesting. I think the London Travelwatch meeting is on 2 April. Maybe we'll get clarity there, as you say.
 

BlyRF

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Did any updates came about recently?

Last I heard was driver familiarization training taking place while instructor training is currently taking place but still the train suffers from some bugs but have been running on the GOBLIN and WCML alot in resent times.

But then again nothing concrete?
 

plcd1

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Did any updates came about recently?

Last I heard was driver familiarization training taking place while instructor training is currently taking place but still the train suffers from some bugs but have been running on the GOBLIN and WCML alot in resent times.

But then again nothing concrete?

Here's a quick summary - some from my own watching of realtimetrains and some from the London Travelwatch (LTW) meeting.

- variable amount of day and night time runs on the GOBLIN. Had been fairly consistent for a couple of weeks but has become more variable in the last week. Some days two units have been out in daylight but today nothing. Similar variation with night time runs. Some of the daytime runs are accompanied by a diesel "rescue" loco but others are not. This despite trains still having to run over the NLL from Gospel Oak to Wembley and thus creating the risk of a potential breakdown on the North London Line (the reason for the loco being operated in the first place).
- still overnight runs on the WCML on weekday nights from Wembley to Milton Keynes and return. Seems NR are a bit happier to allow runs to Milton Keynes now as previously they cut the runs back to Tring.
- TfL are still resistant to implementing any fallback scheme using older alternative rolling stock on the GOBLIN.
- TfL's rep at the LTW meeting dismissed claims of people being unable to board the 4 car half hourly trains in the peaks. There is limited photographic evidence that does show people being left behind.
- TfL would not commit at the LTW meeting to any introduction date for the trains citing Bombardier's repeated failures to meet previous target dates.
- TfL said the instances of software bugs are declining but had not been eliminated. No mention was made as to whether a submission had been made to ORR seeking sign off for the trains (something mentioned in an earlier posting on this thread). No date was given for a resolution of software issues.
- Apparently the driver instructors have been trained on the 710s but there is a reluctance to train drivers because the software remains unstable.

In short, apart from the increase in daytime test runs and some software improvements, it's really no great change from where we have been for several months. It's all rather depressing really.

Happy, as ever, to be corrected if anyone has better and more up to date info.
 

marko2

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- TfL are still resistant to implementing any fallback scheme using older alternative rolling stock on the GOBLIN.

Other members of the forum have repeated ad nauseum why TfL cannot use older stock on the line: The lack of available stock with bodyside DOO cameras
 

Brissle Girl

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Appreciate it takes a while to train a guard, but given the circumstances, would it have been possible to have a “guard-lite” on board whose sole responsibility was to open and close the doors, check no red light ahead and give the signal to start. That wouldn’t take much training surely? Absolutely all other safety aspects stay with the driver. I’m sure people will give lots of reasons why it couldn’t be done (union agreements etc), but it strikes me that people haven’t tried hard enough.
 

transmanche

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Appreciate it takes a while to train a guard, but given the circumstances, would it have been possible to have a “guard-lite” on board whose sole responsibility was to open and close the doors, check no red light ahead and give the signal to start. That wouldn’t take much training surely? Absolutely all other safety aspects stay with the driver. I’m sure people will give lots of reasons why it couldn’t be done (union agreements etc), but it strikes me that people haven’t tried hard enough.
In effect, a travelling despatcher?
 

plcd1

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- TfL are still resistant to implementing any fallback scheme using older alternative rolling stock on the GOBLIN.

Other members of the forum have repeated ad nauseum why TfL cannot use older stock on the line: The lack of available stock with bodyside DOO cameras

Yes *I know*. I also fully understand the reasons. I was merely reporting what was tweeted out of the Travelwatch meeting. No need to shoot the messenger. :rolleyes:
 

hwl

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Yes *I know*. I also fully understand the reasons. I was merely reporting what was tweeted out of the Travelwatch meeting. No need to shoot the messenger. :rolleyes:
Worth noting several of the Goblin User group are extremely pro guard so always try to push the other stock item when they know exactly what the reasons are. They can't accept LO's own data showed a drop in PTI incidents going from Guard to DOO on NLL etc. hence no return to a less safe mode of operation...
 

hwl

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Appreciate it takes a while to train a guard, but given the circumstances, would it have been possible to have a “guard-lite” on board whose sole responsibility was to open and close the doors, check no red light ahead and give the signal to start. That wouldn’t take much training surely? Absolutely all other safety aspects stay with the driver. I’m sure people will give lots of reasons why it couldn’t be done (union agreements etc), but it strikes me that people haven’t tried hard enough.
Unfortunately TfL have data showing that DOO is safer which they gathered during the change to DOO on the NLL. Try writing a safety case for a less safe mode of operation...
LO is loss making and needs 83p per journey subsidy on average so TfL need to ensure costs are kept down and decrease not increase.
 

Fincra5

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Appreciate it takes a while to train a guard, but given the circumstances, would it have been possible to have a “guard-lite” on board whose sole responsibility was to open and close the doors, check no red light ahead and give the signal to start. That wouldn’t take much training surely? Absolutely all other safety aspects stay with the driver. I’m sure people will give lots of reasons why it couldn’t be done (union agreements etc), but it strikes me that people haven’t tried hard enough.

Or you just train the station staff at the affected stations, so all on the GOBLIN, to be able to dispatch DOO services.
 

Bikeman78

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Unfortunately TfL have data showing that DOO is safer which they gathered during the change to DOO on the NLL. Try writing a safety case for a less safe mode of operation...
But it's okay to shut the line (as was looking very likely a few months ago) and replace the service with buses! What a crazy world we live in.
 

Mordac

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Or you just train the station staff at the affected stations, so all on the GOBLIN, to be able to dispatch DOO services.
That's what I was thinking too. They're LO stations, so are already staffed from first to last train anyway. Surely in all the time this farce has gone on they could have trained them for dispatch.
 
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That's what I was thinking too. They're LO stations, so are already staffed from first to last train anyway. Surely in all the time this farce has gone on they could have trained them for dispatch.

It won't simply be a case of training people, though. The Unions will have their say; the change in duties would likely mean a change in staff contracts and remuneration. Dispatching is a safety-oriented role so that may mean negotiations, especially if staff don't want to take up that kind of role when they were hired to do customer service-style work.
Not enjoying putting a downer on the idea - just saying that it's not as simple as taking a bunch of employees into a classroom for a couple of days.
 

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