Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[Bletchleyite]

As stated continental trains are larger and more spacious due to the larger loading guage.
The guy in front of me was mashing the door button trying to get it to open. The step extends first and then the door opens. People will get used to that, saw the same button mashing in the first few weeks of 755.

You also used to get that with Pendolinos which have a very similar feature. People have got used to it.

 

[samuelmorris]

As stated continental trains are larger and more spacious due to the larger loading guage.
The guy in front of me was mashing the door button trying to get it to open. The step extends first and then the door opens. People will get used to that, saw the same button mashing in the first few weeks of 755.

I think at the moment with a choice between Mk3 and 755 I'd take the Mk3, but it's a close run race. There are pros and cons to each. But the 755 is very nice as far as new stock goes. I don't think we could have hoped much better.

People still haven't got used to it on 395s a decade later... (The delayed door opening, not a step)

 

[Railperf]

Trebor 79 I agree and see exactly what you mean. I know I'm expecting too much, but humour me here! I reckon it's the Swiss connection. An hour after getting off 007, and reflection time.. I was thinking about the 'similar' trains I've spent years with in Switzerland and Germany. The same style heating ducts just don't get in the way out there.. so why here? The trains there seem far more airy, and the ride quality seems far better (is this a track/gauge thing?) 007 really felt like a regional stopping train would in Switzerland.. not intercity. I spoke to a couple of other folk who were very happy with 007 and I have to admit it's great to get something new and i'm really happy for that. Maybe it's because I've had 35 years of a daily commute on MK2's and 3's, and yes people did occasionally momentarily lose their balance walking down the aisle on those, but they were doing it tonight. OK I don't know what I was expecting, but I think we're going to be missing those yellow MK3 aluminium knobs. It took the person in front of me to push the exit button several times before the various whirring sounds began. I even thought 'OK I'll try those toilets everyone's talking about.. and yes I had all the same problems (why did the flush button lights go out when you move away from the pan) And the pathetically feeble sink which spills over the floor. The door that opens onto the worlds eyes, and leaves you standing there while it decides to slowly revolve shut. Initial impression for me.. Why are these not the same as similar trains in Switzerland? I just don't get it. Maybe it's like Swiss wine.. they keep all the good stuff for themselves. But wait till the end of next week and i'll no doubt be singing their praises.. as well as mourning the loss of some old friends. Anyroad up, well done GA this bit of the rollout is going well so far!

No...as a Stadler employee told me ...the European versions cost a lot more. Apparently the Norwegian NSB versions were really expensive per unit. The GA Abellio specified product has been purchased on a budget!
I would prefer the LNEE HST MK3, not the Anglia version!

 

[Bletchleyite]

No...as a Stadler employee told me ...the European versions cost a lot more.

I'm not convinced that that's really here or there. Stadler use standard components, and having travelled extensively on other FLIRTs there is nothing unfamiliar about the components used on the GA units, they are just shrunk versions of the European ones to fit our loading gauge (basically Swiss narrow gauge size but with the Scandinavian shaped tapered profile). Even the seats aren't the budget option (and personally I find to be near identical to the Grammer E3000 on the Desiro which is a decent enough seat and superior to many others in current UK use, certainly the Fainsa Sophia).

Them feeling a bit small is just because they are small because the UK has a small loading gauge.

As for ride quality, yes, the UK has a far, far lower standard of track than say Germany or Switzerland even on branches, and long has done. It does vary somewhat between countries - if you took one of the old long multi-country sleeper trains like the Donauwalzer from Muenchen to Bruxelles you could feel that - dead smooth (but fast cornering and lower cant) in Germany, as soon as you crossed into Belgium it all got much bouncier.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm not convinced that that's really here or there. Stadler use standard components, and having travelled extensively on other FLIRTs there is nothing unfamiliar about the components used on the GA units, they are just shrunk versions of the European ones to fit our loading gauge (basically Swiss narrow gauge size but with the Scandinavian shaped tapered profile). Even the seats aren't the budget option (and personally I find to be near identical to the Grammer E3000 on the Desiro which is a decent enough seat and superior to many others in current UK use, certainly the Fainsa Sophia).

Seats are not bad, but the legroom and seat-pitch in airline seats is worse than other FLIRTS - the niche is no substitute for proper leg room but the Grammer seat wouldn't have allowed them to use such a high density layout. The whole design of the interior and the FISA Lean is to have someones knees virtually in the back of someone in front to fit more seats in. That was FISA's pitch to GA.

 

[WroxhamTroll]

How many 745's are in service?
Surprising lack of interior videos on YouTube so far so I had assumed there is only one set and on limited diagrams?

WT

 

[trebor79]

How many 745's are in service?
Surprising lack of interior videos on YouTube so far so I had assumed there is only one set and on limited diagrams?

WT

One. Reported here that another should enter service next week. Diagram for the one in service posted earlier in this thread.

 

[JonathanH]

How many 745's are in service?
Surprising lack of interior videos on YouTube so far so I had assumed there is only one set and on limited diagrams?

WT

Just one on an all day out and back diagram from Norwich but it is early days isn't it.

There was a post upthread about 745006 becoming available this week.

 

[WroxhamTroll]

One. Reported here that another should enter service next week. Diagram for the one in service posted earlier in this thread.

Thanks I was wading back through the thread looking for it. I am due to try and use the service for the first time in months the week after next. Now that the bittern line appears reliable the connection in norwich might work.

Hoping my london service might be a 745 (the 0740 NRW to LST) and it doesn't backfire and I get a bin!

 

[Class 170101]

Hoping my london service might be a 745 (the 0740 NRW to LST) and it doesn't backfire and I get a bin!

Given that Real Time Trains suggests its a Norwich starter it probably won't be a Class 321 but a Mark III set.

 

[trebor79]

0740 was 745 Weds to Fri this week.
Diagram is 0740, 1230, 1730 up and 1000, 1500 and 2000 down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seats are not bad, but the legroom and seat-pitch in airline seats is worse than other FLIRTS - the niche is no substitute for proper leg room but the Grammer seat wouldn't have allowed them to use such a high density layout. The whole design of the interior and the FISA Lean is to have someones knees virtually in the back of someone in front to fit more seats in. That was FISA's pitch to GA.

The seat backs are thicker than the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat, this being the case the pitch and legroom with the niche is not dissimilar to that seat without the niche.

Most FLIRTs I've come across have facing seating, SBB's all do (indeed almost all SBB stock is fully facing). The legroom isn't great and games of kneesie ensue.

 

[dk1]

Hoping my london service might be a 745 (the 0740 NRW to LST) and it doesn't backfire and I get a bin!

That's crewed by Norwich who don't sign bins. Will be LHCS, 745 or cancelled.

 

[WroxhamTroll]

That's crewed by Norwich who don't sign bins. Will be LHCS, 745 or cancelled.

Thanks DK a sign of why I have been driving for 2 months that cancelled has been the regular choice. Really hoping we are at the turning point.

 

[lordbusiness]

After two trips on 007 this week my only criticisms are:

First: Second trip was in the leading first class compartment directly behind the cab which was quite noisy- presumably the whine from the traction motors- not as bad as the first trip in the main compartment.
Second: Not really the trains fault but you really do notice how rubbish some of the track is on the GE. Ride quality at times seemed worse than a good Mk3 especially at speed.

Seats seemed firm but comfortable enough and I actually find the upright posture better for working on the laptop, not so good for lounging or a quick nap though.

 

[Grumbler]

0740 was 745 Weds to Fri this week.
Diagram is 0740, 1230, 1730 up and 1000, 1500 and 2000 down.

I reckon that the current two trains an hour will require 9 sets to be diagrammed (with one out for maintenance). What will be used to run the additional "Norwich in 90s"? Bi-modes?

 

[JonathanH]

I reckon that the current two trains an hour will require 9 sets to be diagrammed (with one out for maintenance). What will be used to run the additional "Norwich in 90s"? Bi-modes?

More to the point, given a 5 hour cycle (needing 10 diagrams) and the additional Norwich in 90, why are there only 10 sets? Is there a plan for a 4.5 hour cycle?

 

[samuelmorris]

More to the point, given a 5 hour cycle (needing 10 diagrams) and the additional Norwich in 90, why are there only 10 sets? Is there a plan for a 4.5 hour cycle?

I believe the intention was to run a 4.5 hour cycle, but 720s and 745/1s will deputise as necessary (one 745/1 will be scheduled regularly I believe due to maintenance requirements at Crown Point)

 

[trebor79]

10 diagrams are needed to cover the basic service, not including the NiN.
GA haven't bought enough 745s.

 

[43096]

10 diagrams are needed to cover the basic service, not including the NiN.
GA haven't bought enough 745s.

For the current service pattern, yes. But what about the service pattern for the eventual new timetable? If there is a NiN per hour and a Norwich/Diss/Ipswich/Manningtree/Colchester/London operated by 745s, then the aim is presumably to turn things round quicker to give a 4.5hr round trip, which will need 9 sets. We already know that the 3rd train per hour to Norwich will be Aventras.

 

[trebor79]

For the current service pattern, yes. But what about the service pattern for the eventual new timetable? If there is a NiN per hour and a Norwich/Diss/Ipswich/Manningtree/Colchester/London operated by 745s, then the aim is presumably to turn things round quicker to give a 4.5hr round trip, which will need 9 sets. We already know that the 3rd train per hour to Norwich will be Aventras.

I don't think there's any plan for a NiN every hour?
I think there would be uproar if Diss Stowmarket, Manningtree and Colchester lost half of their "intercity" train service and had it backfilled with commuter stock.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't think there's any plan for a NiN every hour?
I think there would be uproar if Diss Stowmarket, Manningtree and Colchester lost half of their "intercity" train service and had it backfilled with commuter stock.

I don’t see why. Even Diss is just an hour and a half from London. Clacton to London is 1hr 30mins and they have to make do with “commuter stock”. There looks like there will be plenty of 720 Aventra’s so it’s fairly easy to see where the extra stock for the more frequent service will come from.

 

[LAX54]

I don’t see why. Even Diss is just an hour and a half from London. Clacton to London is 1hr 30mins and they have to make do with “commuter stock”.

Can't see an hourly Ni90 ever being on the cards, maybe another couple in a few years ? probably move to maybe Nch/Diss/Ips/Col/Stratford/Lon & Nch/Diss/Stow/Man/Col/Chelms/Strat/ with the Liv St to Ipswich extended to Norwich calling at Needham Market as well. Peterboro could feed into the 'fast' London at Ipswich from Stow.

 

[James James]

No...as a Stadler employee told me ...the European versions cost a lot more. Apparently the Norwegian NSB versions were really expensive per unit. The GA Abellio specified product has been purchased on a budget!
I would prefer the LNEE HST MK3, not the Anglia version!

I would expect the NSB units to be more expensive given they're not typical Flirts: 200km/h running (most are 160 km/h), more powered bogies* - and associated electrical equipment per unit of length (6 powered axles for 5 cars, whereas most Flirts have 1 or fewer powered axle per car - to be fair the 3-car 755 is also > 1 per car) Perhaps more significantly, they are constructed very differently - as far as I can tell due to climactic requirements - walls are thicker, and heating is built into the walls, instead of floor-level heating ducts - and I imagine there is other weather proofing needed for various components. There are also claims of increased noise insulation.

* some on this thread have claimed the additional powered bogie is to allow for 200k/h running, but that seems to be bogus: the official datasheet claims its for additional redundancy in remote areas. That's backed up by the numbers: total power output of 4.5MW on the NSB Flirt (over 3 powered bogies) is the same as the SBB Flirt (with 2 powered bogies, operating only 160km/h): clearly they aren't adding any power with the extra bogie. (Locally I see 10-car double deck trains opearting at 200km/h with a single 5.6MW locomotive on the end, so it''s hard to imagine the NSB Flirt struggling.)

(But at least the NSB units are proof that they could have ordered trains without the ducts.)

 

[Dave1987]

Can't see an hourly Ni90 ever being on the cards, maybe another couple in a few years ? probably move to maybe Nch/Diss/Ips/Col/Stratford/Lon & Nch/Diss/Stow/Man/Col/Chelms/Strat/ with the Liv St to Ipswich extended to Norwich calling at Needham Market as well. Peterboro could feed into the 'fast' London at Ipswich from Stow.

Definitely not any time soon. The current Ni90 requires a lot of GE services to be looped for a considerable length of time as it is! As has been said by @Railperf the biggest issue at the moment is the lacklustre performance of the 321's. These 745's can stretch their legs as much as they want to but they are just going to end up sat behind a 321 outer suburban service constantly. The real step change will be once the 720's are fully in. Then if you can extend the current London - Ipswich to Norwich and speed it up south west of Colchester then there is a possibility of squeezing in some more Ni90 without constantly adversely affecting GE passengers. What you could probably do is actually make one London - Norwich an hour a "fast" service for the Ni90 thing and then add more stops to the other London - Norwich service, call it at Shenfield, Chelmsford, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket, Diss and Norwich. Then the London - Ipswich service which is extended to Norwich serves Stratford and the other intermediates using a 720. The other semi fast Norwich could use 720's as well if needed. Thereby no one gets a reduced service, and everyone should have a faster journey and not end up "looped" all the time, and there would be sufficient stock as well.

 

[chubs]

I reckon that the current two trains an hour will require 9 sets to be diagrammed (with one out for maintenance). What will be used to run the additional "Norwich in 90s"? Bi-modes?

We dont know. This is the only correct answer.

It could be any stock GA has. It might not happen at all. Plenty of people on this thread have tried to present their guess as fact but until an announcement is made we don't know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We dont know. This is the only correct answer.

It could be any stock GA has. It might not happen at all. Plenty of people on this thread have tried to present their guess as fact but until an announcement is made we don't know.

I still think their choice of numbers of various different types of unit was bizarre. I could entirely understand the franchise standardising on one type of train for everything, something a bit 350/1 like with 2+2 seating and First Class, because it is indeed more of a LNR-like operation than a proper IC one. But if you decided to order IC trains, as they did, why wouldn't you order enough of them for the whole IC service, and potentially slightly fewer commuter trains to balance?

 

[dk1]

It has been said that Abellio favoured Hitachi for the bimode fleet but where thwarted on the timescale (they had such a large order book) so Stadler where approached but the 38 strong fleet was not enough so they also included the Intercity & Airport fleet to the order. How true this is we may never really know but does go someway to explaining how we are where we are.

 

[trebor79]

It has been said that Abellio favoured Hitachi for the bimode fleet but where thwarted on the timescale (they had such a large order book) so Stadler where approached but the 38 strong fleet was not enough so they also included the Intercity & Airport fleet to the order. How true this is we may never really know but does go someway to explaining how we are where we are.

Sounds like a lucky escape. The Stadlers are much better than the IEP trains.
Does seem odd that they didn't order a few more 745/0, they are even replacing the hauled sets like for like and that's before any additional services.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Perhaps once settled in, NiN services will be for the next franchise with new Hitachi trains or an additional order for 745s although the by all accounts the Stadlers are a better option.

Currently just getting up and running is the focus, what's done is done in regards to the 10 intercity Stadlers / commuter sets.