Class 799 hydrogen flex trains...

[Metal_gee_man]

I love the fact that the BBC thinks they've got an exclusive story!
It looks like it's being demoed at Rail Live...

BBC News - All aboard Britain’s first hydrogen train https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48698532

BBC News

All aboard Britain’s first hydrogen train
By Tom Burridge
Transport correspondent, BBC News
19 June 2019 Business

Video caption Hydrogen trains: Are these the eco-friendly trains of the future?
Hydrogen-powered trains are arguably the greenest trains out there.

"Mini power stations on wheels", is how Alex Burrows from the University of Birmingham describes them.

He is the project director for the 'Hydroflex' train which was showcased at an event in the West Midlands.

Unlike diesel trains, hydrogen-powered trains do not emit harmful gases, instead using hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity, water and heat.

It is "a fully green fuel", says Helen Simpson from rail rolling stock company Porterbrook, which created the Hydroflex in partnership with Birmingham University's centre for Railway Research.



The only two in active service in the entire world are in Germany.

Britain is looking to become one of the next countries to start running them.

And the 'Hydroflex' is a tester train where the technology is being trialled.

The hydrogen tanks, the fuel cell and the batteries sit inside a carriage where passengers would normally sit.

In future commercial models that equipment will have to be stored away above and beneath the train.

So why is this all happening now?
A quarter of the UK's trains run solely off diesel.

The government wants them all gone by 2040.

"The carbon writing is on the wall", says Mike Muldoon from French train manufacturer Alstom, the company behind Germany's hydrogen trains.

He argues the rail sector has to get greener "if we are going to convince more people to shift from car to train."

But until the day when hydrogen trains are ferrying passengers around the UK, diesel-powered trains are a necessity.

That is because more than two thirds of our rail lines do not have overhead cabling which electric trains need to run.

So trains are bi-mode, which means they can run off electricity, where there are overhead cables, and off diesel the rest of the time.

But bi-mode trains are, in environmental terms, far from perfect.

And electrifying rail lines does not come cheaply for the government.

Regional routes which carry relatively few passengers are unlikely to be electrified soon.

And that is where hydrogen trains come in.

The hope is that they will be carrying passengers in the UK in two years.

line
Rail electrification in numbers

In January 2018, 36% of the UK's rail network was electrified.
Because the busiest routes are electrified, 70% of all trains in the UK are electric.
24% of the UK's trains are diesel-only.
The remaining 6% of UK trains are bi-mode.
Since 2010, the government has electrified 248 miles of track.
Source: DfT

Can Britain just use the same hydrogen trains as Germany?
The short answer is no. That's because German trains are taller.

"Because the Victorians went first they built trains smaller", says Mike Muldoon from Alstom.

Smaller trains means less space to fit all the technology on board.

The challenge now is to design trains which have enough hydrogen in their tanks to last an entire day.

"The technology should be discreetly hidden", says Mike Muldoon, Alstom's UK head of business development.

For example its hydrogen trains in Germany, which are similar to a future UK train design, have the fuel cells in the roof and the batteries underneath the train.

Porterbrook's 'Hydroflex' train is bi-mode, meaning it can be powered by electricity made from hydrogen or take electricity from overhead cables.

The plan is that the train will begin testing on the UK mainline in March.

Helen Simpson, from Porterbrook, says hydrogen trains are "very practical" for replacing long-distance diesel routes."

Copyright © 2019 BBC.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just watching an piece on BBC News right now. It is moving, which is good news. The bad news is that the fuel, generation units and batteries are inside the unit rather than underneath. That will be the real challenge and when they can move the kit under the floors might the 799 project move forward. However like other concept trains being tested with older vehicles, I suspect that any lessons learnt from these kinds of tests will ultimately be best purposed in new units, built specifically to accommodate the fuel and conversion requirements.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Hmm. Well we managed with the power above the sole bar in the 20x DMUs so is that a deal breaker? Would the 769s be in service if we'd sacrificed a few seats to make room for the diesels? I assume it is an easier engineering proposition. Either way the hydrogen seems to work.

 

[Bantamzen]

Hmm. Well we managed with the power above the sole bar in the 20x DMUs so is that a deal breaker? Would the 769s be in service if we'd sacrificed a few seats to make room for the diesels? I assume it is an easier engineering proposition. Either way the hydrogen seems to work.

Well at the moment the power units are mid-train as far as I can tell, so they would at least need to be moved to an end car. However, and this is key, these types of trains may well end up on branches with short platforms, so unit length will be key as will getting as much kit under the unit as possible. Germany seems to have been able to get the fuel cells away from the carriages so we should be able to.

 

[edwin_m]

Hmm. Well we managed with the power above the sole bar in the 20x DMUs so is that a deal breaker? Would the 769s be in service if we'd sacrificed a few seats to make room for the diesels? I assume it is an easier engineering proposition. Either way the hydrogen seems to work.

This is unashamedly experimental and the quoted text notes the need to get the equipment out of the passenger areas in any production version. The 769 was intended to be a production design from the start so there was no point producing a prototype with the diesel above floor level. I doubt the delays to service of the 769 have much to do with where they put the engine.

 

[whhistle]

The government wants them all gone by 2040.

My mistake from another thread.

I thought the Government wanted no more diesels ordered after 2040.

Shame they don't say no more diesel cars on the roads from 2040 too!

 

[hwl]

My mistake from another thread.

I thought the Government wanted no more diesels ordered after 2040.

Shame they don't say no more diesel cars on the roads from 2040 too!

Similar but different announcements for road and rail at this point last year (before JoJo resigned) that are causing confusion. In both cases fossil only by 2040, bimode/ hybrid solutions being allowed post 2040.

 

[mallard]

It's worth noting that the new East Midlands' franchise agreement includes a commitment to trial Hydrogen-powered trains, which (I believe) is the only confirmed passenger use so far. Whether that'll be a 799, a "Breeze" or some new-build design is yet to be confirmed of course.

 

[geoffk]

Hudrogen-powered trains are being promoted for their "green" credentials, yet 95% of hydrogen is produced either from wood or fossil fuels, such as natural gas and oil. An alternative method is electrolysis, i.e. splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen by using an electric current. I'm not a scientist and someone else may want to expand on this.

 

[robk23oxf]

The production and storage of hydrogen are two main issues that need to be addressed. I've driven a hydrogen car though and it was excellent, generating power on-board is still superior to current battery technology.

 

[DelW]

Hmm. Well we managed with the power above the sole bar in the 20x DMUs so is that a deal breaker?

Well at the moment the power units are mid-train as far as I can tell, so they would at least need to be moved to an end car. However, and this is key, these types of trains may well end up on branches with short platforms, so unit length will be key as will getting as much kit under the unit as possible. Germany seems to have been able to get the fuel cells away from the carriages so we should be able to.

Greater Anglia's new FLIRT 3 and 4 car trains have power units above floor level in the form of the short mid-train power module, so presumably a similar solution could be used if it proves too problematic to fit all the kit below floor level?

 

[notlob.divad]

Hudrogen-powered trains are being promoted for their "green" credentials, yet 95% of hydrogen is produced either from wood or fossil fuels, such as natural gas and oil. An alternative method is electrolysis, i.e. splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen by using an electric current. I'm not a scientist and someone else may want to expand on this.

Correct, but to some extent hydrogen is a byproduct of those chemical processes that is currently often burnt off. Whilst I agree that in an 'ideal' world we wouldn't make any of these chemicals from carbon emitting sources, that is unrealistic and so making use of the byproducts rather than just burning them off would be a step improvement.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ve just been on the demonstrator, very smooth. Far better ride quality than the 230 on the Marston Vale

 

[a_c_skinner]

Does anyone on here know how the hydrogen is stored? Compressed in cylinders? Liquid (thinking Saturn V here), metal hydride tanks? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

The problem with all this "clean" technology is that it is all predicated on a lot of electricity (electrolysis in this case) and we are actually not that well off for generating capacity. Huge changes such as we don't envisage are needed.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

The production and storage of hydrogen are two main issues that need to be addressed. I've driven a hydrogen car though and it was excellent, generating power on-board is still superior to current battery technology.

The process I recall was the Castner cell which used the electrolysis of brine to produce chlorine with a lot of hydrogen as a by product. Very energy intensive though. I don’t think there is an easy way to produce hydrogen.

 

[edwin_m]

Hudrogen-powered trains are being promoted for their "green" credentials, yet 95% of hydrogen is produced either from wood or fossil fuels, such as natural gas and oil. An alternative method is electrolysis, i.e. splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen by using an electric current. I'm not a scientist and someone else may want to expand on this.

The process I recall was the Castner cell which used the electrolysis of brine to produce chlorine with a lot of hydrogen as a by product. Very energy intensive though. I don’t think there is an easy way to produce hydrogen.

I don't recall chlorine being mentioned, and it's a pretty unpleasant side effect if so, so I think some other method of electrolysis must be used. I got the impression it's perfectly possible but a lot more expensive than hydrogen produced from fossil fuels. In principle hydrogen is a means of storing energy, which is important as we move towards renewwable source that are often intermittent, but it doesn't seem to be talked about much so perhaps other means such as batteries are more cost-effective.

 

[broadgage]

Hudrogen-powered trains are being promoted for their "green" credentials, yet 95% of hydrogen is produced either from wood or fossil fuels, such as natural gas and oil. An alternative method is electrolysis, i.e. splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen by using an electric current. I'm not a scientist and someone else may want to expand on this.

Hydrogen CAN be produced from wood, by firstly fermenting wood pulp to produce methanol, and then producing hydrogen from methanol. This is a complex and not very efficient process and is not carried out on a significant scale.
Also rather pointless, it would be easier to burn the methanol for power rather than convert it into hydrogen. Methanol is liquid and fairly easy to handle.
Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, this is a simple and well understood process, but rather pointless as the natural gas could be used directly to power a train or other vehicle.
Hydrogen may also be produced by electrolysis of water, a well understood process that needs a lot of electricity. It would in most cases make more sense to apply the electricity to powering trains, via OHLE or by battery trains, rather than converting to hydrogen.
Hydrogen produced by electrolysis will be at least twice as expensive as the electricity used, due to losses.

Hydrogen can also be produced from coal, the old towns gas that was used for lighting, cooking, and heating was largely hydrogen. It was used for filling gas balloons due to ready availability and low cost if compared to pure hydrogen.

 

[hwl]

I don't recall chlorine being mentioned, and it's a pretty unpleasant side effect if so, so I think some other method of electrolysis must be used. I got the impression it's perfectly possible but a lot more expensive than hydrogen produced from fossil fuels. In principle hydrogen is a means of storing energy, which is important as we move towards renewwable source that are often intermittent, but it doesn't seem to be talked about much so perhaps other means such as batteries are more cost-effective.

I think the point being made was that some of the current UK hydrogen "surplus" comes from chlorine production rather than it being a first choice for additional production. (Some comes from refineries and fertiliser production).

The only easy energy efficient and clean way to produce Hydrogen is the pseudo catalytic Sulphur-Iodine process using (waste) heat at 830C from a helium cooled fission reactor.

Hence there is slight R&D gap to address first.

 

[DarloRich]

I’ve just been on the demonstrator, very smooth. Far better ride quality than the 230 on the Marston Vale

Is rail live open to normals?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve just been on the demonstrator, very smooth. Far better ride quality than the 230 on the Marston Vale

That's interesting given that the bogies are original and I don't think they've been changed much. Track quality?

 

[hwl]

Hydrogen CAN be produced from wood, by firstly fermenting wood pulp to produce methanol, and then producing hydrogen from methanol. This is a complex and not very efficient process and is not carried out on a significant scale.
Also rather pointless, it would be easier to burn the methanol for power rather than convert it into hydrogen. Methanol is liquid and fairly easy to handle.
Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, this is a simple and well understood process, but rather pointless as the natural gas could be used directly to power a train or other vehicle.
Hydrogen may also be produced by electrolysis of water, a well understood process that needs a lot of electricity. It would in most cases make more sense to apply the electricity to powering trains, via OHLE or by battery trains, rather than converting to hydrogen.
Hydrogen produced by electrolysis will be at least twice as expensive as the electricity used, due to losses.

Hydrogen can also be produced from coal, the old towns gas that was used for lighting, cooking, and heating was largely hydrogen. It was used for filling gas balloons due to ready availability and low cost if compared to pure hydrogen.

Hydrogen from electrolysis is 23 to 28% efficient overall which is less than a third of the OHLE total efficiency.

 

[DarloRich]

That's interesting given that the bogies are original and I don't think they've been changed much. Track quality?

A low speed and short distance journey

 

[Darandio]

That's interesting given that the bogies are original and I don't think they've been changed much. Track quality?

That's what I was thinking. If you ride the Class 799 in it's current state then you are getting the ride of a Class 319?

 

[hexagon789]

That's what I was thinking. If you ride the Class 799 in it's current state then you are getting the ride of a Class 319?

Our 318s/320s ride pretty well on the same Series 3 bogies, even at 90mph they are quite smooth and far superior to what replaced them.

 

[Nobby15]

Hope that unit shown was on the test track and not running on the sidings at Quinton , as it was displaying the wrong front illumination

 

[hexagon789]

I’ve just been on the demonstrator, very smooth. Far better ride quality than the 230 on the Marston Vale

I'm very glad to hear that, makes it more worthwhile having them in revenue service - the passengers will actually get a comfy ride!

 

[rebmcr]

Hydrogen CAN be produced from wood, by firstly fermenting wood pulp to produce methanol, and then producing hydrogen from methanol. This is a complex and not very efficient process and is not carried out on a significant scale.
Also rather pointless, it would be easier to burn the methanol for power rather than convert it into hydrogen. Methanol is liquid and fairly easy to handle.
Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, this is a simple and well understood process, but rather pointless as the natural gas could be used directly to power a train or other vehicle.
Hydrogen may also be produced by electrolysis of water, a well understood process that needs a lot of electricity. It would in most cases make more sense to apply the electricity to powering trains, via OHLE or by battery trains, rather than converting to hydrogen.
Hydrogen produced by electrolysis will be at least twice as expensive as the electricity used, due to losses.

Hydrogen can also be produced from coal, the old towns gas that was used for lighting, cooking, and heating was largely hydrogen. It was used for filling gas balloons due to ready availability and low cost if compared to pure hydrogen.

Hydrogen can also be produced by algae, which has the benefit of using the sun as the power source. I have no idea whether the method is yet ready for commercial application, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is rail live open to normals?

No, it’s trade only.

 

[pdeaves]

Is rail live open to normals?

No, industry only.

 

[gingertom]

the food industry uses hydrogen for converting and modifying fats- can we learn anything from them?