Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[greatvoyager]

Brand new trains stinking out St Pancras and leaving on diesel would be very bad PR.

Maybe they can start on electric power at St Pancras and go to diesel once out of the station, passing Kentish Town maybe?

 

[londonmidland]

Does anyone know how long and what process is required for to upgrade the wires suitable for 125mph?

Also will the be any headspan to portal conversions, like they’ve done on the ECML?

 

[twpsaesneg]

Does anyone know how long and what process is required for to upgrade the wires suitable for 125mph?

Also will the be any headspan to portal conversions, like they’ve done on the ECML?

Outline design for this is underway, there may be some portal conversions, however the focus of the work at present is to change some crossover configurations on the fast lines, wire grading works and the removal of "shallow curve" registration arms to allow greater OLE uplift.

In answer to someone upthread, there are no balises installed as part of the initial electrification works since the stock using the wires at present will be electric only.

In the future I'd expect to see some form of Automatic Power Changeover at Market Harborough, but you never know, the March budget may add wiring further North!

 

[Mordac]

Maybe they can start on electric power at St Pancras and go to diesel once out of the station, passing Kentish Town maybe?

They could go for longer than that. According to the Sectional Appendix, the first 110mph section is 5m 30ch out of St. Pancras, just north of Cricklewood.

 

[greatvoyager]

According to Modern Railways magazine, the 804s will have around 300 seats and similar capacity to the 7-car 222s.
https://modern-railways.keypublishing.com/2019/12/18/emr-bi-mode-specification-confirmed/

 

[D365]

According to Modern Railways magazine, the 804s will have around 300 seats and similar capacity to the 7-car 222s.
https://modern-railways.keypublishing.com/2019/12/18/emr-bi-mode-specification-confirmed/

Impressive for a five car unit, especially as the Class 804 carriages are not much longer than in the 222s.

 

[greatvoyager]

Impressive for a five car unit, especially as the Class 804 carriages are not much longer than in the 222s.

I imagine it's because only end vehicles have a universal access toilet, so the intermediate carriages can make better use of the room to provide more seats and normal toilets.

 

[greatvoyager]

They could go for longer than that. According to the Sectional Appendix, the first 110mph section is 5m 30ch out of St. Pancras, just north of Cricklewood.

That's a good point, forgot about that.

 

[Domh245]

I imagine it's because only end vehicles have a universal access toilet, so the intermediate carriages can make better use of the room to provide more seats and normal toilets.

The 222s only have UATs in the end vehicles, so there'll be no difference on that front. The (presumed) lack of buffet will gain a few seats though.

Quickly crunching the numbers, GWR's IETs have 326 seats, so if the 804s are fitting "over 300 seats" I'd expect a similar layout! Also, just comparing the render of the train that we have to existing 80x, it seems like some (/a lot) of the length saving comes from the overhangs being shortened so it'll be interesting to see how these units are in terms of space-saver toilets and bike storage

 

[greatvoyager]

The 222s only have UATs in the end vehicles, so there'll be no difference on that front. The (presumed) lack of buffet will gain a few seats though.

Quickly crunching the numbers, GWR's IETs have 326 seats, so if the 804s are fitting "over 300 seats" I'd expect a similar layout! Also, just comparing the render of the train that we have to existing 80x, it seems like some (/a lot) of the length saving comes from the overhangs being shortened so it'll be interesting to see how these units are in terms of space-saver toilets and bike storage

In that case, it probably will mean no buffet or maybe less leg room?

 

[Raul_Duke]

In that case, it probably will mean no buffet or maybe less leg room?

I’m having....... a vision.......

*touches forehead*

I’m seeing.... Railforums in 2022....... there’s a thread, I think I can read the first post ........

“Why do EMR’s new trains have such poor legroom and why are the seats so hard? They’re so cramped and they don’t line up with the windows like I would like. Why can’t we just go back to some Mk3’s?!?!? Or even better some peaks and Mk2’s?!?! They said nationalisation would fix this!”

 

[greatvoyager]

I’m having....... a vision.......

*touches forehead*

I’m seeing.... Railforums in 2022....... there’s a thread, I think I can read the first post ........

“Why do EMR’s new trains have such poor legroom and why are the seats so hard? They’re so cramped and they don’t line up with the windows like I would like. Why can’t we just go back to some Mk3’s?!?!? Or even better some peaks and Mk2’s?!?! They said nationalisation would fix this!”

I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.

 

[DDB]

I think I read somewhere that some of the existing sets had too much first class accommodation relative to standard so depending exactly where they put the divide in the composite coach they could gain a few seats from that.

 

[Roast Veg]

The 222s also have enormous vestibules, a lot of the carriage length is lost in some vehicles. The 26m AT300 carriages are mor efficient and I don't imagine the 24m ones will be much worse.

 

[greatvoyager]

The 222s also have enormous vestibules, a lot of the carriage length is lost in some vehicles. The 26m AT300 carriages are mor efficient and I don't imagine the 24m ones will be much worse.

That is going to make it easier to put more seats in.

 

[43096]

Impressive for a five car unit, especially as the Class 804 carriages are not much longer than in the 222s.

Don't forget that there is a big over-capacity of first class on the 7-car 222s, which obviously has an impact on the number of seats.

 

[greatvoyager]

I think I read somewhere that some of the existing sets had too much first class accommodation relative to standard so depending exactly where they put the divide in the composite coach they could gain a few seats from that.

I wonder if they'll use the layout of the other 5-car IETs, and have the composite coach having around 75% of the space as standard class.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

I still have an issue with them only ordering 5 car sets, hardly an improvement in capacity is it? To me at least it would have made more sense to order 5 car and 9 car sets at 26 meter per car but what do I know.

 

[D365]

I don’t think the Midland Main Line has a pressing need for fixed 9-car trains, does it? Bearing in mind a number of the Class 222s started out life in 9-car formation.

 

[43096]

I still have an issue with them only ordering 5 car sets, hardly an improvement in capacity is it? To me at least it would have made more sense to order 5 car and 9 car sets at 26 meter per car but what do I know.

There’s a platform length restriction of 240m at St Pancras for a start, so using 24m vehicles makes sense. 5-car sets also make some sense as it is then a standard fleet.

 

[Roast Veg]

The new timetable would not be possible with any 9x26m or 10x24m sets. Fast 10 car sets will separate to form two slow 5 car sets, and vice versa.

 

[greatvoyager]

I don’t think the Midland Main Line has a pressing need for fixed 9-car trains, does it? Bearing in mind a number of the Class 222s started out life in 9-car formation.

That's true, I think it'll be okay, seeing as the capacity will be comparable to the 7-car units too.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

There’s a platform length restriction of 240m at St Pancras for a start, so using 24m vehicles makes sense. 5-car sets also make some sense as it is then a standard fleet.

Yes I know that’s the limit but that would still mean a 9*26 would still fit.

 

[hwl]

Yes I know that’s the limit but that would still mean a 9*26 would still fit.

But then you have a non uniform fleet (2 different lengths) that you can't use as efficiently so end up requiring more stock (who would pay for it?).

The EMR bid is based on very efficient unit diagramming which isn't what happens at the moment (Very inefficient - but lots of history, this is a fresh start)!

 

[samuelmorris]

Is there a thread for information/speculation about the future of the 222s once the 804s displace them? I had a quick search and didn't see anything obvious.

 

[Robertj21a]

But then you have a non uniform fleet (2 different lengths) that you can't use as efficiently so end up requiring more stock (who would pay for it?).

The EMR bid is based on very efficient unit diagramming which isn't what happens at the moment (Very inefficient - but lots of history, this is a fresh start)!

A uniform fleet on the main line must be an enormous benefit over the current arrangements.

 

[Speed43125]

Is there a thread for information/speculation about the future of the 222s once the 804s displace them? I had a quick search and didn't see anything obvious.

This help?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-22x-units.167576/

 

[greatvoyager]

I still have an issue with them only ordering 5 car sets, hardly an improvement in capacity is it? To me at least it would have made more sense to order 5 car and 9 car sets at 26 meter per car but what do I know.

The capacity of the 5-car is going to be similar to the current 7-car 222s, which may mean a slight reduction on the fast Sheffield trains which use the 7-car 222s, but there also the possibility of a more suitable ratio of 1st and standard class seats.

 

[samuelmorris]

This help?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-22x-units.167576/

Thanks!

 

[greatvoyager]

Are the 804s going to be able to reduce journey times?