Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

[Railperf]

Can we use this thread to discuss and report/update Class 800's with engines out / short forms etc?
Also as the 800s performance is upgraded to a version closer to the 802's - any reports of units having had the upgrade would be welcome.
Recent reports from RPS members recording 800310 suggest its performance in both electric and diesel modes are between 15% to 20% higher than the average Class 800.
No reports of any other 800's displaying enhanced performance levels except the LNER ones.

 

[samuelmorris]

Subbing to this - not that I use 800s often, but I find this particular subject fascinating (and a bit worrying!)

 

[hexagon789]

Can we use this thread to discuss and report/update Class 800's with engines out / short forms etc?
Also as the 800s performance is upgraded to a version closer to the 802's - any reports of units having had the upgrade would be welcome.
Recent reports from RPS members recording 800310 suggest its performance in both electric and diesel modes are between 15% to 20% higher than the average Class 800.
No reports of any other 800's displaying enhanced performance levels except the LNER ones.

I didn't realised they has decided to enhance the 800s. I assume that's uprating to 802-level power in electric and giving the full 940hp per engine in diesel mode?

 

[cactustwirly]

I didn't realised they has decided to enhance the 800s. I assume that's uprating to 802-level power in electric and giving the full 940hp per engine in diesel mode?

Yeah, all the GWR 800s have the enhanced software, they use 940hp at the start, but they de-rate a bit faster than the 802s

 

[hexagon789]

Yeah, all the GWR 800s have the enhanced software, they use 940hp at the start, but they de-rate a bit faster than the 802s

Well that's what I was meaning are they modifying, at the very least the LNER ones, to maintain 938hp over the full speed range instead of de-rating at 25-30mph as they do currently.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah, all the GWR 800s have the enhanced software, they use 940hp at the start, but they de-rate a bit faster than the 802s

Do the 802s de-rate at all? I haven't heard that mentioned before.

 

[hexagon789]

Do the 802s de-rate at all? I haven't heard that mentioned before.

I didn't think the 802s did myself; only the 800s I thought other than the usual traction motor current tailing-off as speed increases

 

[43096]

If we’re talking 80x reliability they were absolutely shocking on Saturday: short forms, engines out, cancellations etc etc. And an eye-watering level of delay minutes attributable to them.

 

[Railperf]

I didn't think the 802s did myself; only the 800s I thought other than the usual traction motor current tailing-off as speed increases

As indicated by @Clarence Yard in the original GWR Class 800 thread...in diesel mode both 800 and 802 start out at 940hp..and both derate. Just that the 800s derate to a lower level than the 802s.
In electric mode the 800s acceleration was faster than in diesel mode but complied to a DfT specified acceleration curve. Class 802s accelerated even faster in electric mode as they were not limited to the DfT acceleration rate.
So - as we understand it - the 800s are being upgraded to perform identically to the 802s in both modes. That still means 940hp derating to a lower level in diesel mode. And apparently unrestricted performance in electric mode.

 

[hexagon789]

As indicated by @Clarence Yard in the original GWR Class 800 thread...in diesel mode both 800 and 802 start out at 940hp..and both derate. Just that the 800s derate to a lower level than the 802s.
In electric mode the 800s acceleration was faster than in diesel mode but complied to a DfT specified acceleration curve. Class 802s accelerated even faster in electric mode as they were not limited to the DfT acceleration rate.
So - as we understand it - the 800s are being upgraded to perform identically to the 802s in both modes. That still means 940hp derating to a lower level in diesel mode. And apparently unrestricted performance in electric mode.

I see, is there a reason why the engines have to de-rate?

 

[samuelmorris]

As indicated by @Clarence Yard in the original GWR Class 800 thread...in diesel mode both 800 and 802 start out at 940hp..and both derate. Just that the 800s derate to a lower level than the 802s.
In electric mode the 800s acceleration was faster than in diesel mode but complied to a DfT specified acceleration curve. Class 802s accelerated even faster in electric mode as they were not limited to the DfT acceleration rate.
So - as we understand it - the 800s are being upgraded to perform identically to the 802s in both modes. That still means 940hp derating to a lower level in diesel mode. And apparently unrestricted performance in electric mode.

What I find interesting about this is despite the strict restrictions on what services 800s can operate, the hours they can run, the power limits, maintenance schedules and so on, the supposed superior build quality of the UK assembled units rather than the Italian 802s, it seems like the number of defective units is at least as high with 800s as it is with 802s. The strict requirements of the IET contract seem to have provided no gain in practice, or at least certainly not yet, heading for 2 years after first introduction.

 

[Railperf]

What I find interesting about this is despite the strict restrictions on what services 800s can operate, the hours they can run, the power limits, maintenance schedules and so on, the supposed superior build quality of the UK assembled units rather than the Italian 802s, it seems like the number of defective units is at least as high with 800s as it is with 802s. The strict requirements of the IET contract seem to have provided no gain in practice, or at least certainly not yet, heading for 2 years after first introduction.

If I recall correctly it was stated somewhere in the previous thread that the maintenance schedules for the class 802 is slightly more intensive than that for the class 800 which may explain why there isn't a huge difference in reliability

 

[samuelmorris]

If I recall correctly it was stated somewhere in the previous thread that the maintenance schedules for the class 802 is slightly more intensive than that for the class 800 which may explain why there isn't a huge difference in reliability

I see, I must have missed that. With the 802s supposedly being far cheaper than the 800s, and higher-spec (in the form of power output), that's a disgrace, but I suppose not surprising.

 

[43096]

I see, I must have missed that. With the 802s supposedly being far cheaper than the 800s, and higher-spec (in the form of power output), that's a disgrace, but I suppose not surprising.

In the same way that a camel is a "horse designed by a committee", an 800 is a "train designed by a Government department".

 

[irish_rail]

Rumour has it class 802s are routinely robbed of parts to keep 800s going. How true that is I don't know....

 

[Clarence Yard]

Rumour has it class 802s are routinely robbed of parts to keep 800s going. How true that is I don't know....

That is utter wibble. There is no Xmas tree operation going on. In fact the 802 sets usually have the best availability and are regularly bailing out the 800 fleet.

The reason for the engines not having the full 940hp through the speed range, quite apart from hitting the natural traction curve limits, is that Hitachi wish to reduce engine wear throughout the supposed engine life cycle. So they set the engines up to meet the end to end journey times whilst reducing the spike in engine power demand. GWR have persuaded the DfT to get the 800 sets set up to equal the 802 sets but it still isn’t full bifters throughout the entire speed range.

 

[Railperf]

That is utter wibble. There is no Xmas tree operation going on. In fact the 802 sets usually have the best availability and are regularly bailing out the 800 fleet.

The reason for the engines not having the full 940hp through the speed range, quite apart from hitting the natural traction curve limits, is that Hitachi wish to reduce engine wear throughout the supposed engine life cycle. So they set the engines up to meet the end to end journey times whilst reducing the spike in engine power demand. GWR have persuaded the DfT to get the 800 sets set up to equal the 802 sets but it still isn’t full bifters throughout the entire speed range.

Does that suggests the more intense maintenance of the 802 fleet is a factor in its superior availability?

 

[JN114]

Does that suggests the more intense maintenance of the 802 fleet is a factor in its superior availability?

There would be that correlation yes; presuming - and I don’t know either way - that the 802s do indeed have a more intense maintenance schedule.

 

[Railperf]

There would be that correlation yes; presuming - and I don’t know either way - that the 802s do indeed have a more intense maintenance schedule.

From Clarence posted on another forum ..
"800 units are on a 50 day cycle between main exams, 802 units are on a 30 day cycle between main exams. I presume it’s because the two owners have different contractual arrangements."

 

[JN114]

From Clarence posted on another forum ..
"800 units are on a 50 day cycle between main exams, 802 units are on a 30 day cycle between main exams. I presume it’s because the two owners have different contractual arrangements."

Like I said, I’m not doubting it at all; I just didn’t know either way. There would be a correlation then between more intensive maintenance regime on the 802s and their better availability.

 

[Railperf]

The reason for the engines not having the full 940hp ... they set the engines up to meet the end to end journey times whilst reducing the spike in engine power demand.

Does the December 2019 timetable propose faster diesel sectional running times ..and if so .. will that require a more powerful engine setup from Hitachi?

 

[Mintona]

Does the December 2019 timetable propose faster diesel sectional running times ..and if so .. will that require a more powerful engine setup from Hitachi?

I would highly doubt it. I can’t see Hitachi changing around the engine settings this close to the new timetable. Not beyond what Clarence Yard has posted is already happening anyway.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The faster journey times will be mainly due to the electric performance being timetabled in rather than using HST timings on the electric sections. On the diesel sections it is reduced dwells that mainly make the savings. The alterations to stopping patterns with the revised service also have a hand in reducing journey times.

The reason the 802 fleet is performing better is mainly due to the fact that the main components are "younger". They also benefit in having the relevant modifications being done earlier in the component life cycle.

 

[samuelmorris]

The faster journey times will be mainly due to the electric performance being timetabled in rather than using HST timings on the electric sections. On the diesel sections it is reduced dwells that mainly make the savings. The alterations to stopping patterns with the revised service also have a hand in reducing journey times.

The reason the 802 fleet is performing better is mainly due to the fact that the main components are "younger". They also benefit in having the relevant modifications being done earlier in the component life cycle.

Is there much that's end of life after less than 2 years in service?

 

[387star]

On an 800 leaving Swindon to reading and it's on diesel . Why is this when there's wires?

Less noisy than a voyages but feels like a regional DMU and the vibrations are felt on the floor

Plugs don't work either

 

[hexagon789]

On an 800 leaving Swindon to reading and it's on diesel . Why is this when there's wires?

Less noisy than a voyages but feels like a regional DMU and the vibrations are felt on the floor

Plugs don't work either

I believe that on any given day there are usually a couple of IETs working on diesel only for various reasons

 

[samuelmorris]

I believe that on any given day there are usually a couple of IETs working on diesel only for various reasons

Last count it was about 10% of the fleet wasn't it? If it's a 10-car, only one of the units needs to be on diesel only for both of them to be, as they can't work off different power modes. If that first figure is correct then that means you have about 1/6 odds of getting a diesel only train, so the likelihood is fairly high.

 

[FGW_DID]

On an 800 leaving Swindon to reading and it's on diesel . Why is this when there's wires?

Less noisy than a voyages but feels like a regional DMU and the vibrations are felt on the floor

Plugs don't work either

I believe that on any given day there are usually a couple of IETs working on diesel only for various reasons

There is / was also a Block to Electric Traction in the Wootton Bassett area so everything would be on diesel west of Swindon. Maybe the Driver forgot to pan up or couldn’t be bothered to pan up just to drop the pan again at Steventon.

 

[hexagon789]

Last count it was about 10% of the fleet wasn't it? If it's a 10-car, only one of the units needs to be on diesel only for both of them to be, as they can't work off different power modes. If that first figure is correct then that means you have about 1/6 odds of getting a diesel only train, so the likelihood is fairly high.

That sounds about right, I think the Railway Magazine had average figures on it at some point. Even 10% is quite a proportion, if they could halve that they'd save a good bit of fuel I'd imagine.

 

[hexagon789]

There is / was also a Block to Electric Traction in the Wootton Bassett area so everything would be on diesel west of Swindon. Maybe the Driver forgot to pan up or couldn’t be bothered to pan up just to drop the pan again at Steventon.

Is that due to some issue with the OLE? That they'll often have a No Electric section on part of the line?