Class 800

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by SpacePhoenix, 19 May 2014.

  1. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    Was reading about the class 800s, on wikipedia it says that the diesel engines are under the floor. With the emissions/pollution regulations as they are, isn't any new design of DMU or DEMU that utilizes under-floor engines dead in the water before it even makes it to the drawing board?
     
  2. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Only if you take "internet received wisdom" as "fact".
     
  3. starrymarkb

    starrymarkb Established Member

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    I think I know where it has come from. There was a rush to re-engine the last of the HST power cars as MTU's new version of the 4000V wouldn't fit in the Power cars. It's easier to accommodate the extra catalytic converters and other emission reduction gubbins in a new design then to shoehorn it into an existing one.
     
  4. Chris125

    Chris125 Established Member

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    IIRC the issue was mainly about the economics involved especially for the number likely to be needed and where, and the IEP does not appear to be a cheap train by any stretch of the imagination - that said 26m carriages presumably provides more room underneath than a 23m Turbostar carriage for example, while the door layout allows a higher floor.

    Chris
     
    Last edited: 19 May 2014
  5. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    I think the rumour is down to the newer compliant engines firstly not being available at the time (they are now) and secondly having to be larger and not fitting underneath an existing design like a Turbostar.
     
  6. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    There is a new version of the QSK-19 (used underfloor on Voyagers, Adelantes, Meridians and Pennines) that is compatible with the latest restrictions. It's the QSK-19R. Whether it would fit on existing designs is one thing, but it could easily be fitted to a new design built around it.
     
  7. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    Sounds lovely already, higher floors, thumping great big 700kW MTU 12V 1600 R80L constantly thumping away underneath almost constantly... reminds me of something else with higher floors, and thumping great Cummins engines constantly droning away underneath all the time. :|

    It will be interesting to see how Hitachi accommodate the rather large MTU powerpack though, but I hope they do a good job of soundproofing first, and better underfloor mechanical layout than Alstom did of the Adelantes!
     
  8. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    I would expect the engine to be driving a generator/alternator which feeds traction motors for final drive, after all the IEP/Class 800 comes in either electric only or electro-diesel ("bi-mode") ^flavours^, and running like a DEMU when not drawing overhead traction power, rather than a mechanical/hydraulic unit like the Adelantes. With energy transferred as electrical current, as long as the wires are properly insulated and everything else is up to specification then it's pretty hard to go wrong.
     
  9. asylumxl

    asylumxl Established Member

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    I suggest you read the IEP specification if you haveb't. As with most new tenders, they have decibel limits for various situations and the volume in the passenger saloon shouldn't exceed the volume of a normal conversation.
     
  10. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

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    I really don't see the issue with under-floor engines, at least in new stock. I've never found the Voyagers, for example, to be too loud. I actually prefer them to the creaking and squeaking of the vestibules in Mark 3 coaches. They just suffer from being too short for the job they're given.

    Anyway, I hope the IEP is a good train because we're going to be stuck with it for a while!
     
  11. tsr

    tsr Established Member

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    When you've been sitting on similar trains (one or two Meridians, in my case) for long-distance journeys, and the engines have been faulty and vibrating horribly the whole time, then you come to realise that it's not always a good plan to keep them underfloor!
     
  12. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    Please remember that the vast majority of passenger kilometres on the IEP fleet will be done under the wires where there would be no need for the diesel engine to be active. On the East Coast the worst case scenario is the Highland Chieftan but that will still spend most of its journey under the wires - currently there are 4 hours and 39 minutes (London-Haymarket) under the wires compared to the total 8 hours 6 minute journey time. With EGIP wiring up to Dunblane, this becomes 5 hours 28 under the wires around the same time that the IEP fleet will replace the HSTs on EC. As the rolling programme of electrification continues this under-wire journey time increases more and more and so there will be less and less time spent with the diesel engine running.
     
  13. Hairy Bear

    Hairy Bear Member

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    Worse engine Cummings have ever made. Noisy, unbalanced vibration and leak oil and water like theres no tommorow.
     
  14. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Thats still pretty loud.. Although I guess that might include the volume under heavy acceleration too?
     
  15. cjmillsnun

    cjmillsnun Established Member

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    I'd rather have that creak and squeak of those wonderfully comfortable Mk3s than the awful vibration I feel through the floor in a Voyager.

    The jury's out on IEP. Many feel it's going to be an expensive piece of crap. It's certainly going to be expensive, and it will have an incredibly hard act to follow. Both the HST and 91/Mk4s were and are excellent trains that have proven to be very good at the job they do.

    But then, many felt the same about HST when it took over from the Deltic. All we can do is wait and see.
     
  16. asylumxl

    asylumxl Established Member

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    The sound should not exceed those limits. I believe they have a frequency curve with levels for various frequencies which the bi-mode IEP cannot exceed at any speed on "the IEP network".

    It should in theory be somewhat quieter than current intercity DEMUs, but time will tell.
     
  17. Olaf

    Olaf Member

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    The Mk3 ad Mk4 sets are antiquated and give a very uncomfortable ride; will glad to see the back of them.
     
  18. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    I thought the MkIV coaches had v.poor seats when first introduced. The Mallard seats are much better if a bit too tall
     
  19. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    On my recent 180 trip, I found them quite civilised and quiet, definitely better than a Meridian!
     
  20. 47802

    47802 Established Member

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    Matter of opinion Yes the MK3's were good but frankly they are past there use by date now, the MK4's I never felt they were that great, the original seats as has been commented were terrible, the ride I don't think is that great, and they have the tilt profile they don't use.

    I actually think IEP will be a good train, I remember my first trip on an HST and thought they were an amazing train but that was 37 years ago and things need to move on.
     
    Last edited: 28 May 2014
  21. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    I agree - pity it took so long to sort out the teething problems (down to Alstom management problems I suspect - eyes off the ball etc.).
     
  22. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I must be in the minority then - I've found both Mk3s and Mk4s perfectly comfortable enough to travel on in standard class, regardless of seat type. That said, I prefer to sit fairly upright and have plenty of back support.
     
  23. Manchester77

    Manchester77 Established Member

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    http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/up...of-the-future-unveiled-for-the-thames-valley/
    Mock up unveiled officially now, apparently supposed to be the DfT approved version too.
     
  24. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Awaiting the comments about seat and window alignment.
     
  25. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    Fairly understandable given that some of the interior for standard looks like this. Spot the no window seats opposite the dismal rack. I'm starting to have my reservations about that bike space too - it works well on the 444s because the bikes are standing as they should with their wheels inserted into slots on the floor - whereas those hang them up ones don't tend to work very well at all - I hated them on the original 158s and I hate them on the Voyagers. This looks a little like a cross between both bike storage wise. And I wonder what's going in the space on the other side of the vestibule? More luggage space perhaps as those rather miniscule racks wont do well as a replacement for the large ones in the HSTs, especially given Bristol and Heathrow Airports along the GWML, and they do get very full with large suitcases / assorted luggage as it is. Those things don't stand a chance!

    Maybe it's just me, but I cant say I'm that impressed. Apart from the fashionable slating of the age of the Mk3s by some on here, I will miss them not because of age but because of how well designed their layouts are. I can't foresee anything in reality that will really come close to them apart from possibly the 10 year old Adelantes. I wonder if that's the final draft of how First Class will be too - given that FGW are just about to refurbish their HST FC provision again, it looks like it'll be a come down from the HST to the IEP.
     

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  26. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    They do look like they're made almost entirely out of plastic.
     
  27. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    That wouldn't surprise me either. I wasn't impressed with the Hitachi 395 and I doubt I'll be that impressed with these either. I know I often slate Bombardier for some of their interior choices, but Hitachi's dressing up of Plastic panelling as chrome didn't impress me on the Javelin, especially when it started to rattle and become more obvious of it's quality.

    Something else I've noticed from my screenshots - If you look into the upper edge of the window frame, please tell me they aren't those rather silly Voyager Style window blinds. And I know it's in a warehouse somewhere near Leamington spa, but that interior makes it look rather dark in contrast to the bright lighting, which unless the presenter is rather tall (im not a regular viewer of ITV News round here!) does look a little low!
     
  28. Temple

    Temple Established Member

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  29. Olaf

    Olaf Member

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    I agree, it is more the ride quality than the seats that I have a problem with; even a Desiro seems more stable. The Mk4s also feel early as cramped as the Pendolinos.
     
  30. cf111

    cf111 Established Member

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    They look like the window blinds to me.
     

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