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GWR Class 800

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F Great Eastern

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that's what you get when the DfT designs the trains

Indeed, the DfT have it worked out to a fine art these days.

They shout loudly about all their grand plans and how great things are going to be thanks to their investment and start to sugar coat everything in a massive amount of marketing spin and PR about how much the government is investing in the railways.

When the criticism starts coming in they run as fast as they can away from the trains as fast as they possibly can ensuring that they do not get any blame and instead the TOC has to take the flack from the public on something they had no say in.

The TOCs are essentially being held up and used as a shield for the DfT who is essentially nationalising any praise and privatising all the blame.
 
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D1009

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Apart from the lack of buffet, the unit that I have been on was very nice inside. In the main they are a vast improvement on the high-density HSTs they are replacing. It's just the lack of buffet which is disappointing. Imagine a 5-hr run to Penzance when the trolley doesn't get to you until Newton Abbott because of standees as far as Plymouth.
How many Paddington Penzance runs have standees as far as Plymouth? If the crowding is so bad the trolley can't get through, they will serve from a static position, as happens on XC, but it is just as likely the passengers wouldn't want to push past the standees even if there was a proper buffet. My experience on the IETs so far has been that there are double manned trolleys on both 5 car sets in the 10 car formations, though I'm not sure whether this is the long term plan. If you require hot food the second person will return to the galley and prepare it for you, though up to now the advertising of what is on offer has been virtually non-existent. This may be due to staff unfamiliarity.
 

Mugby

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I have a recurring vision in my head which may be right or may be wrong. I visualise the people at the DfT sitting at their desks thumbing through train catalogues and saying "Oh they look nice, we'll order some of those"

Suitability? what's that!
 

superhands

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How many Paddington Penzance runs have standees as far as Plymouth? If the crowding is so bad the trolley can't get through, they will serve from a static position, as happens on XC, but it is just as likely the passengers wouldn't want to push past the standees even if there was a proper buffet. My experience on the IETs so far has been that there are double manned trolleys on both 5 car sets in the 10 car formations, though I'm not sure whether this is the long term plan. If you require hot food the second person will return to the galley and prepare it for you, though up to now the advertising of what is on offer has been virtually non-existent. This may be due to staff unfamiliarity.

Most school hoildays, xmas and easter. Every friday the 1903, you will find most weekdays the 1206, 1406 and 1606 are well used sometimes with luggage all over the place also on a sunday the 1457, 1547, 1647 are quite busy as well
 

broadgage

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DMUs? If we're talking simplistically, they're EMUs with diesel engines bolted on.

They are multiple units, they have underfloor diesel engines, these engines are used regularly for a large part of the journey, IMO that makes them DMUs even if they can and do use electric power at times.
 

D1009

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They are multiple units, they have underfloor diesel engines, these engines are used regularly for a large part of the journey, IMO that makes them DMUs even if they can and do use electric power at times.
Can't we call them EDMUs, Electro Diesel Multiple Units?
 

TwistedMentat

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Can't we call them EDMUs, Electro Diesel Multiple Units?

My understanding is similar locos would be called electro-deisel locomotives so that would seem to be a fair thing to call the 800s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive

Anyways, still looking forward for a ride once they're running on the weekend. Even more so come the new year when it'll be all overhead from RDG to PAD.
 

sprinterguy

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I have a recurring vision in my head which may be right or may be wrong. I visualise the people at the DfT sitting at their desks thumbing through train catalogues and saying "Oh they look nice, we'll order some of those"

Suitability? what's that!
An amusing image, though not accurate in this case as the DfT actually wrote the specification for these trains ("Make them not like a Voyager", essentially) and has been deeply involved in their development every step of the way. These trains wouldn't exist in their present form if not for the DfT.

As far as the DfT are concerned, these ARE the most suitable trains for the GWML, and other long distance inter-city routes.
 
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dp21

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I thought bi-mode was the generally accepted term?

Yup, I know GA are using the term BMU.

They're the same in that they are an electric train with a diesel engine attached to generate power; just the configuration is different. It's been designed as such and so you can remove the engines and run it as a pure EMU.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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An amusing image, though not accurate in this case as the DfT actually wrote the specification for these trains ("Make them not like a Voyager", essentially) and has been deeply involved in their development every step of the way. These trains wouldn't exist in their present form if not for the DfT.
As far as the DfT are concerned, these ARE the most suitable trains for the GWML, and other long distance inter-city routes.

And the people formulating the specification were not "civil servants", but senior technical people seconded/hired from the rail industry (eg from ROSCOs, TOCs and manufacturers).
The economics of the train would also play a big part in how the procurement unfolded once Hitachi had been chosen as the manufacturer.
 

D365

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Yup, I know GA are using the term BMU.

They're the same in that they are an electric train with a diesel engine attached to generate power; just the configuration is different. It's been designed as such and so you can remove the engines and run it as a pure EMU.

Exactly, hence my original comment.

And not to be confused with the Class 379 battery trial which was known as an IPEMU!
 

coppercapped

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Yup, I know GA are using the term BMU.

They're the same in that they are an electric train with a diesel engine attached to generate power; just the configuration is different. It's been designed as such and so you can remove the engines and run it as a pure EMU.
As there is a DC link into the variable frequency, variable voltage inverter for the traction motors which is fed from either the rectified output from the alternator attached to the diesel engines or the rectified output form the 25kV transformer, in principle there is no reason why one should not remove the pantographs, transformers and rectifiers and run the train as a pure DMU.
 

jimm

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Most school hoildays, xmas and easter. Every friday the 1903, you will find most weekdays the 1206, 1406 and 1606 are well used sometimes with luggage all over the place also on a sunday the 1457, 1547, 1647 are quite busy as well

Bear in mind that a low-density HST has about 540 seats, whereas a 2x5 IET seats about 650 and a nine-car will seat 630 or so. There will also be more frequent services to and from the West Country from the end of next year as part of the GW timetable overhaul. Which should all help reduce standing at busy times - plus more local services in Devon and Cornwall which may also help ease pressure on the long-distance services at that end of the route.
 
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BMU is not a new term. The French have had the separate distinction for Bi-Mode units for the last 13 years, with such units having a "B" prefix as opposed to "X" for diesel only or "Z" for electric only units.

DMU - Diesel Multiple Unit
EMU - Electric Multiple Unit
BMU - Bi-Mode Multiple Unit

CMU - Composite Multiple Unit
(any of the above in multiple with another type. eg trains formed of DMU in multiple with an EMU as occurs in Denmark, and perhaps used to happen on the SR?)
 

Railperf

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Does anybody remember the first true bi mode to run on BR metals - the Class 91 / HST combination with 8000hp at the rail with both diesel and electric traction - incredible acceleration in Duel mode but painfully slow in diesel mode
 

snowball

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Does anybody remember the first true bi mode to run on BR metals - the Class 91 / HST combination with 8000hp at the rail with both diesel and electric traction - incredible acceleration in Duel mode but painfully slow in diesel mode

Surely there were electro-diesels long before that on the Southern Region.
 

Dai Corner

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Surely there were electro-diesels long before that on the Southern Region.

Yes, but (I think) the Class 91 / HST power car combination was the first to use diesel and electric power simultaneously in normal service.

Edited to mention the 4-REP/Cl 33s on the Bournemouth line. Did they use both types of power at the same time?

Apologies for going off topic. If anyone wants to discuss this subject suggest starting a new thread.
 

Domh245

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Yes, but (I think) the Class 91 / HST power car combination was the first to use diesel and electric power simultaneously in normal service.

The 800s don't use both simultaneously though? And yes, the 91 + Surrogate DVT trains were beaten to the accolade of first dual voltage by the 73s, built from 1962 onwards!
 

coppercapped

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And the people formulating the specification were not "civil servants", but senior technical people seconded/hired from the rail industry (eg from ROSCOs, TOCs and manufacturers).
The economics of the train would also play a big part in how the procurement unfolded once Hitachi had been chosen as the manufacturer.
Hmmm.
In 2011 at least 'Mr IEP' at the DfT was Stuart Baker - better known as a cartographer...

I would be surprised if any of the ROSCOs were involved - that was the whole point of the IEP, to keep the ROSCOs out of train procurement and supply.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Hmmm.
In 2011 at least 'Mr IEP' at the DfT was Stuart Baker - better known as a cartographer...
I would be surprised if any of the ROSCOs were involved - that was the whole point of the IEP, to keep the ROSCOs out of train procurement and supply.

Well by then they would be ex-ROSCO people. :smile:
One name Roger Ford mentioned was previously a senior figure at Alstom, from the 390 programme.
 

voyagerdude220

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Apparently one of the IEP sets had some sort of door fault/incident this afternoon, whilst working 1L82 16:55 Cardiff Central to London Paddington at Bristol Parkway. It terminated at Bristol Parkway. Caused quite a few delays to other services.
 

D1009

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Apparently one of the IEP sets had some sort of door fault/incident this afternoon, whilst working 1L82 16:55 Cardiff Central to London Paddington at Bristol Parkway. It terminated at Bristol Parkway. Caused quite a few delays to other services.
It looks to me as though the Selective door release seems to be the most troublesome problem since introduction to passenger service.
 

JN114

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It looks to me as though the Selective door release seems to be the most troublesome problem since introduction to passenger service.

A fault was alleged to have occurred; it was then discovered there was no fault and the train did exactly what it was designed to do. By the time the alleged fault was discovered not to be a fault; the train had been terminated and sent onto Stoke Gifford for investigations.
 
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