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GWR Class 800

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Master29

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The reviews of the 800 on tripadvisor make sobering reading. They can`t all be dismissed as fake news, pointless hacks, "those kind of people would say that" type of thing. There are simply too many to ignore. People genuinely don`t seem to like them. One guy summed it up with saying this is a train made by bean counters and accountants more concerned with statistics rather than what people would actually like. I`m not saying that`s all necessarily true but imo the 800`s aren`t very innovative given the level of advancement. Electro diesel technology has been around for decades.
 
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JamesT

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The reviews of the 800 on tripadvisor make sobering reading. They can`t all be dismissed as fake news, pointless hacks, "those kind of people would say that" type of thing. There are simply too many to ignore. People genuinely don`t seem to like them. One guy summed it up with saying this is a train made by bean counters and accountants more concerned with statistics rather than what people would actually like. I`m not saying that`s all necessarily true but imo the 800`s aren`t very innovative given the level of advancement. Electro diesel technology has been around for decades.

I'd argue that rather than being fake news, they're probably not particularly representative. The Class 800s must have carried thousands of people, there are only a few hundred reviews of GWR on TripAdvisor and not all of those are reviews of the 800s. There's then also a well known effect that unhappy people are more likely to comment on a service than those who are satisfied. I don't think you can generalise from these to say that (most?) people don't like them.
 

Master29

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I'd argue that rather than being fake news, they're probably not particularly representative. The Class 800s must have carried thousands of people, there are only a few hundred reviews of GWR on TripAdvisor and not all of those are reviews of the 800s. There's then also a well known effect that unhappy people are more likely to comment on a service than those who are satisfied. I don't think you can generalise from these to say that (most?) people don't like them.

In general I would agree especially when looking at the facebook GWR page but the replies on tripadvisor are more thoughtful compared to the likes of FB. When I said people don`t seem to like them it was a generalisation yes, but that does seem to echo the people I have spoken to. Not necessarily a bad train but our versions aren`t anything special. They do after all have pretty big boots to fill.
 

tbtc

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The reviews of the 800 on tripadvisor make sobering reading. They can`t all be dismissed as fake news, pointless hacks, "those kind of people would say that" type of thing. There are simply too many to ignore. People genuinely don`t seem to like them. One guy summed it up with saying this is a train made by bean counters and accountants more concerned with statistics rather than what people would actually like. I`m not saying that`s all necessarily true but imo the 800`s aren`t very innovative given the level of advancement. Electro diesel technology has been around for decades.

You've only quoted one person, and I don't use Trip Advisor, so I don't know what kind of stuff people are saying, but the majority of complaints I've seen online from "normal people" (i.e. outside the enthusiast or rail professionals) are along the lines of "the seats are too hard" and "the interior is a bit boring". Both of which are essentially complaints about the Government that procured them, since Hitatchi have delivered what was asked for - if you order a train with monochrome interiors and thinly padded seats then don't be surprised if that's what you end up with.

Mechanically, I'm not sure about the "not very innovative" comment - how innovative do you want trains to be? What's lacking? Okay, they can't do 200mph, they don't have Third Rail capabilities, they can't go through the Crossrail "core", they are a bit rubbish for freight and probably couldn't manage the Kessel Run... but, seriously, what else do you want them to be able to do?
 

trebor79

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I liked my one and only trip on an 800, save for the seating and lack of buffet car.
I quite like the interior design and ambience and was pleasabtly surprised that the engines were unnoticeable other than when idling in stations.
If they put proper seats in they'd be a good train.
 

Master29

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You've only quoted one person, and I don't use Trip Advisor, so I don't know what kind of stuff people are saying, but the majority of complaints I've seen online from "normal people" (i.e. outside the enthusiast or rail professionals) are along the lines of "the seats are too hard" and "the interior is a bit boring". Both of which are essentially complaints about the Government that procured them, since Hitatchi have delivered what was asked for - if you order a train with monochrome interiors and thinly padded seats then don't be surprised if that's what you end up with.

Mechanically, I'm not sure about the "not very innovative" comment - how innovative do you want trains to be? What's lacking? Okay, they can't do 200mph, they don't have Third Rail capabilities, they can't go through the Crossrail "core", they are a bit rubbish for freight and probably couldn't manage the Kessel Run... but, seriously, what else do you want them to be able to do?

I was comparing them to the time of the HST introduction and to what they were replacing. i.e . class 52`s. 35 mph faster, although not on all the network obviously. Considerably quieter, more comfortable, more roomy. Good all round ambience. All sound like good innovations or improvements to me. I have been on 800`s and can`t say anything new apart from a little more legroom and fast acceleration (only on EM) but so is the much maligned Voyager. That doesn`t sound like much innovation for 40+ years considering 52`s were only in mainline service for 16 years and came only 15 years before the HST. Like I said, a bean counters train.
 

D365

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How much "innovation" do you want out of a railway that was built in the 19th Century?
 

The Ham

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I was comparing them to the time of the HST introduction and to what they were replacing. i.e . class 52`s. 35 mph faster, although not on all the network obviously. Considerably quieter, more comfortable, more roomy. Good all round ambience. All sound like good innovations or improvements to me. I have been on 800`s and can`t say anything new apart from a little more legroom and fast acceleration (only on EM) but so is the much maligned Voyager. That doesn`t sound like much innovation for 40+ years considering 52`s were only in mainline service for 16 years and came only 15 years before the HST. Like I said, a bean counters train.

Let's check if the list:
35 mph faster, although not on all the network obviously. - No, only 15mph faster top speed (which is only possible once there's been some changes to the signalling), but faster off the mark, so there's going to be some speed advantage (mostly at lower speeds where it brings the most benefit). As such 1/2 a mark.

Considerably quieter - Yes, although mostly when under the wires.

more comfortable - maybe maybe not it's down to personal preference

more roomy - yes, more legroom and more seats per train

Goodall round ambience - again maybe maybe not

2.5 out of 5. With most of the lost points being things that are personal preference. Yes 50% is far from ideal, but the more room was something that was often cited as going to be a problem when the draft layouts cane out (as you couldn't get more seats in without having less legroom), and that's only a few areas which have been listed.

If you look at others:
- power doors, so standard now that people don't even think of them as being an improvement
- removes the need for diesel running under the wires
- toilets that don't flush to the track, again so standard that it's missed from people lists

There's likely to be more, but it does show that there are areas where they are an improvement over the HST's (even if some of those improvements are very boring and predictable).
 

irish_rail

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One aspect that really disappoints with these IETS is the noise when idling at stations on diesel. This represents a major downgrade in station ambience at many places now , especially the likes of Plymouth, Swansea, Exeter , Penzance etc.
OK, they are not quite as loud as Voyagers , but each morning now there will be 3 or 4 ,(potentially) 10 car, sets idling away at Plymouth station. Does seem that certain parts of the network are having to pay for other parts to become quieter and greener.....
 

Master29

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Let's check if the list:
35 mph faster, although not on all the network obviously. - No, only 15mph faster top speed (which is only possible once there's been some changes to the signalling), but faster off the mark, so there's going to be some speed advantage (mostly at lower speeds where it brings the most benefit). As such 1/2 a mark.

Considerably quieter - Yes, although mostly when under the wires.

more comfortable - maybe maybe not it's down to personal preference

more roomy - yes, more legroom and more seats per train

Goodall round ambience - again maybe maybe not

2.5 out of 5. With most of the lost points being things that are personal preference. Yes 50% is far from ideal, but the more room was something that was often cited as going to be a problem when the draft layouts cane out (as you couldn't get more seats in without having less legroom), and that's only a few areas which have been listed.

If you look at others:
- power doors, so standard now that people don't even think of them as being an improvement
- removes the need for diesel running under the wires
- toilets that don't flush to the track, again so standard that it's missed from people lists

There's likely to be more, but it does show that there are areas where they are an improvement over the HST's (even if some of those improvements are very boring and predictable).

You`ve quoted the wrong post here. I was referring to differences between HST`s and 52`s with mk2 coaches.
 

47802

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The reviews of the 800 on tripadvisor make sobering reading. They can`t all be dismissed as fake news, pointless hacks, "those kind of people would say that" type of thing. There are simply too many to ignore. People genuinely don`t seem to like them. One guy summed it up with saying this is a train made by bean counters and accountants more concerned with statistics rather than what people would actually like. I`m not saying that`s all necessarily true but imo the 800`s aren`t very innovative given the level of advancement. Electro diesel technology has been around for decades.

It will be interesting to see what people make of TPE MK5's compared to TPE 802's OK the interior colour scheme will be a bit brighter for both trains compared to the GWR 800's but apart from that looks like they will have the same seats as the 800's and Window/Seat alignment doesn't look great either on the Mk5's but I can confidently predict that the MK5's will be regarded as vastly superior on here because they are loco hauled:lol::lol: even though most passengers probably wont notice much difference between a TPE Mk5 set or a TPE 802.

'Electro diesel technology has been around for decades' maybe so but I don't recall seeing any previous UK Bi-mode trains that could do 140mph on Electric, and at least 110mph on Diesel perhaps you could point me in the direction of some.
 

tbtc

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I was comparing them to the time of the HST introduction and to what they were replacing. i.e . class 52`s. 35 mph faster, although not on all the network obviously. Considerably quieter, more comfortable, more roomy. Good all round ambience. All sound like good innovations or improvements to me. I have been on 800`s and can`t say anything new apart from a little more legroom and fast acceleration (only on EM) but so is the much maligned Voyager. That doesn`t sound like much innovation for 40+ years considering 52`s were only in mainline service for 16 years and came only 15 years before the HST. Like I said, a bean counters train.

Given that HSTs already ran at maximum linespeed for the UK (excluding HS1 services), and certainly the maximum linespeed for the GWML, I'm not sure how fast you think the IET should be running?

Given what a fiasco the GWML electrification has been (which was obviously the fault of the public sector, rather than Hitatchi), how much more delayed/ deferred/ downgraded/ over-budget would it have been if they'd tried to upgrade it to a 160mph railway (since we apparently need to increase the maximum speed by 35mph every time we get new trains)? They'd not have reached Reading yet if they'd taken that approach.

Realistically, the HST had a fresh sheet of paper, they had plenty of space in front of them to take advantage of higher speeds. Anything trying to run at 160mph on the modern day railway is going to be stuck at ambers for most of its journey, since the lines are so congested with slow moving services (passenger and freight).

Of all the reasons to criticise IET that I've seen, the fact that they aren't as big a leap forward from the HST (as the HST was from 90mph Class 52s) seem a bit unfair. But then, you could argue that the IET is also replacing the 90mph Class 166s that have been running on the Cotswold services?

It will be interesting to see what people make of TPE MK5's compared to TPE 802's OK the interior colour scheme will be a bit brighter for both trains compared to the GWR 800's but apart from that looks like they will have the same seats as the 800's and Window/Seat alignment doesn't look great either on the Mk5's but I can confidently predict that the MK5's will be regarded as vastly superior on here because they are loco hauled:lol::lol: even though most passengers probably wont notice much difference between a TPE Mk5 set or a TPE 802

I think you are right there.

Look how Voyagers = Bad (they replaced irregular 90mph loco hauled services with boring clock-face 125mph DMUs) whilst Meridians = Good (but they replaced 170s), despite most of a Meridian being the same as most of a Voyager.
 

WelshBluebird

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The reviews of the 800 on tripadvisor make sobering reading. They can`t all be dismissed as fake news, pointless hacks, "those kind of people would say that" type of thing. There are simply too many to ignore. People genuinely don`t seem to like them. One guy summed it up with saying this is a train made by bean counters and accountants more concerned with statistics rather than what people would actually like. I`m not saying that`s all necessarily true but imo the 800`s aren`t very innovative given the level of advancement. Electro diesel technology has been around for decades.

I don't put too much trust in what sites like TripAdvisor say though. When comparing things like restaurants (like for like) it makes sense, but in general I don't think you can just assume that a bad comment on there means much. People only like to complain about bad things. They will rarely be as eager to post about positive things.
 

najaB

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OK, they are not quite as loud as Voyagers , but each morning now there will be 3 or 4 ,(potentially) 10 car, sets idling away at Plymouth station.
With all the attention on particulate matter emissions are they likely to be left idling for long periods at the station, or started up a couple of minutes before departure?
 

irish_rail

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With all the attention on particulate matter emissions are they likely to be left idling for long periods at the station, or started up a couple of minutes before departure?
Well they seem to be left idling away at Bristol tm at present during there 45 min or so layover so no reason to think we will be shutting them down as this will cause the air to drain away and had a potential impact on performance.
 

trainmania100

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Does anyone know what units will be arriving tonight at North Pole International? Sorry if this is the wrong thread but im sure they're 800s
 

Jonny

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Look how Voyagers = Bad (they replaced irregular 90mph loco hauled services with boring clock-face 125mph DMUs) whilst Meridians = Good (but they replaced 170s), despite most of a Meridian being the same as most of a Voyager.

I think the issue is that some Voyagers saw less than 200 seats replacing more than 350, whereas the Meridians were neutral or a slight increase.
 

najaB

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...so no reason to think we will be shutting them down as this will cause the air to drain away and had a potential impact on performance.
Interesting. Other DMUs shut down at the station and only restart a few (10 or fewer) minutes before departure so it's a bit disappointing that 800s can't do the same. What I could easily see happening is short sections of OHLE being installed in stations to allow the compressors to run while the engines are shut down.
 

Taunton

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Well they seem to be left idling away at Bristol tm at present during there 45 min or so layover so no reason to think we will be shutting them down as this will cause the air to drain away and had a potential impact on performance.
You really would have thought that by 2018 and all the expenditure on the project, this one would have been cracked.

and at least 110mph on Diesel
I think that should be "at most" 110mph on Diesel. Not as fast as their predecessors. But also, not as quick to accelerate. So, overall, slower.

You really would have thought, with all the hoopla and cost, that they could have been better. The seats are bolt upright mainly to get more passengers in, though of course the fares are not reduced to suit. Someone looked in the seat manufacturers catalogue and found a whole range of seats offered, some quite nice for long journeys, but even the manufacturer describes these seats as "outer suburban".
 

BestWestern

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Well they seem to be left idling away at Bristol tm at present during there 45 min or so layover so no reason to think we will be shutting them down as this will cause the air to drain away and had a potential impact on performance.

Are they idling on all engines, or is there perhaps a 'hotel power' facility (as per 185s I think?) whereby one engine will tick over to keep the vital stuff intact? Let's not forget that HSTs have always been left idling (at one end) on turnaround, so it isn't anything new, although of course it's less intrusive when the idling loco is sat out at the end of the platform by the station throat. Having said that, it's certainly not unreasonable to expect a new train to be able to cope with frequent shutdown/startup cycles.
 

jimm

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I think that should be "at most" 110mph on Diesel. Not as fast as their predecessors. But also, not as quick to accelerate. So, overall, slower.

So what? The 800s were never expected to have to run regularly on diesel at speeds in excess of 100mph - and that is all they will be asked to do from January, except a short bit of the Bath route west of Thingley junction and on another short bit of the Berks & Hants Line.

Hitachi were not asked to build a specialised 125mph diesel train - so they didn't. If the infrastructure was passed for 140mph electric running, IETs would leave HSTs for dead and they can easily out-accelerate them using 25kv.

You really would have thought, with all the hoopla and cost, that they could have been better. The seats are bolt upright mainly to get more passengers in, though of course the fares are not reduced to suit. Someone looked in the seat manufacturers catalogue and found a whole range of seats offered, some quite nice for long journeys, but even the manufacturer describes these seats as "outer suburban".

As sure as the sun rises in the morning and goes down at night, someone will like a certain sort of train seat and others will hate it, as proven by threads too numerous to count on this forum... more passengers have been got in by the simple expedient of, er, having longer coaches.
 
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Well they seem to be left idling away at Bristol tm at present during there 45 min or so layover so no reason to think we will be shutting them down as this will cause the air to drain away and had a potential impact on performance.

Compared to HST’s the air loss rate when shut down is minimal and that won’t be the reason. DMU’s don’t have fridges with food in, if the engines are shut down, there is no power (unit has to be auxed off), so the CH’s can’t prepare their trolleys, urns etc. The fridges go above temperature, the A/C is off , the lighting is off, etc, etc. I suspect this has more to do with it than loss of air.
 

The_Engineer

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The fridges go above temperature, the A/C is off , the lighting is off, etc, etc. I suspect this has more to do with it than loss of air.
Agreed! The running of the diesel engines is more about maintaining electrically powered services required during train prep, and ensuring the passenger saloons are maintained at a suitable temperature for service.
 

59CosG95

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Does anyone know what units will be arriving tonight at North Pole International? Sorry if this is the wrong thread but im sure they're 800s
Seems to be ECS workings mainly, and pretty sure they're all 800s too. The 5X80 delivery run from Doncaster Carr IEP Depot was cancelled today, and I don't know if it'll run tomorrow morning either.
 

FOH

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Agreed! The running of the diesel engines is more about maintaining electrically powered services required during train prep, and ensuring the passenger saloons are maintained at a suitable temperature for service.
Could that not be provided externally at regular turnaround points? Run a cable to a box or something. A bit like airports do this so the plane doesn’t need to run its Auxiliary Power Unit
 

FGW_DID

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800303 observed just now (20:50) at Reading working 5Z31 Swindon- North Pole Depot.
 

800001

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Does anyone know what units will be arriving tonight at North Pole International? Sorry if this is the wrong thread but im sure they're 800s

Was meant to be 802003 and 802004 being delivered from Pistoria, however they are still stuck at the French Border so will not be arriving tonight.
 

BestWestern

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Could that not be provided externally at regular turnaround points? Run a cable to a box or something. A bit like airports do this so the plane doesn’t need to run its Auxiliary Power Unit

Shore supply is available at various HST turnaround/stabling locations for exactly that purpose.
 
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