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GWR Class 800

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Thunderer

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Looks like 9 car sets being used regularly on temple meads to Paddington. Two days 17:00 has been 9 car. 306 Friday and 308 today. Seems to sort all previous issues, plenty of seats and actually seems slightly faster on diesel but could be my imagination! Certainly seems more like a proper train!
I had 800306 between Reading and Cardiff on 9th Aug and Im inclined to agree, somehow they seem to be faster on diesel than the five car 800/0..not sure if that is actually the case?
 

Master29

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I had 800306 between Reading and Cardiff on 9th Aug and Im inclined to agree, somehow they seem to be faster on diesel than the five car 800/0..not sure if that is actually the case?
With the power to weight ratio that shouldn`t be the case but you aren`t the only person to note that.
 

absolutelymilk

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Presumably the air resistance is less on the 9 car due to not having the cabs in the middle messing up the airflow?
 

387star

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Are these trains generally liked by passengers or disliked?

I don't see any bad publicity in the press since the launch which had leaks
 

D1009

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Are these trains generally liked by passengers or disliked?

I don't see any bad publicity in the press since the launch which had leaks
My perception is that outside the enthusiast community, people like them. Obviously they're going to be unhappy if a short formed one turns up on a busy train however.
 
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My perception is that outside the enthusiast community, people like them. Obviously they're going to be unhappy if a short formed one turns up on a busy train however.
They are, but whilst moaning about being crammed in, they are happier than no train turning up.
 

GW43125

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With the power to weight ratio that shouldn`t be the case but you aren`t the only person to note that.

I used a speedometer app on my phone to measure the acceleration and on diesel the 800/3 was slower to accelerate than the 800/0. The first run of the /3 had an engine out and couldn't keep to HST timings.

I find 800s on diesel are a tad similar to Boeing 707s- a lot of noise for not much power!
 

broadgage

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Are these trains generally liked by passengers or disliked?

I don't see any bad publicity in the press since the launch which had leaks
Generally disliked, in my experience.
The main causes of dissatisfaction seem to be
Hard seats
No buffet
Not enough luggage space.
Too short
No reservations.

Seating comfort is of course very subjective, and some people like them, but the general view is "too hard"
The absence of a buffet is a frequent cause of complaint.
The "too short" complaints presumably refer mainly to single 5 car units replacing HSTs. So much for the promises that all busy trains would be either 5+5 or 9 car ! In fact many busy services have been 5 car.
The reservation system seldom seems to work, and even when it does, reservations are voided on half length trains.

Hopefully reliability will improve, but the prohibition on buffet cars seems permanent.

These are not just my views but may be seen on trip advisor and similar websites.
 

JN114

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The "too short" complaints presumably refer mainly to single 5 car units replacing HSTs. So much for the promises that all busy trains would be either 5+5 or 9 car ! In fact many busy services have been 5 car.

Outside of the North Cotswolds Route - there have been no 5 cars diagrammed to replace HSTs, everything that was an HST should be a 9 or a 5+5 - unit availability permitting.
 

broadgage

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Outside of the North Cotswolds Route - there have been no 5 cars diagrammed to replace HSTs, everything that was an HST should be a 9 or a 5+5 - unit availability permitting.
There may have been no 5 car units DIAGRAMMED to replace HSTs, but a lot of former HST services have in practice been 5 car due to non availability.
The average customer knows not the details, but simply observes that the "new trains are shorter" Most days last week saw at least a dozen services formed of a single 5 car unit, when either 5+5 or 9 cars was expected.
 

D1009

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There may have been no 5 car units DIAGRAMMED to replace HSTs, but a lot of former HST services have in practice been 5 car due to non availability.
The average customer knows not the details, but simply observes that the "new trains are shorter" Most days last week saw at least a dozen services formed of a single 5 car unit, when either 5+5 or 9 cars was expected.
Which amounts to 2 9 or 10 car diagrams out of 16 or 17.
 

387star

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Not enough Luggage Space?

Has anyone been on a set where this has been an acute problem?
 

cactustwirly

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There may have been no 5 car units DIAGRAMMED to replace HSTs, but a lot of former HST services have in practice been 5 car due to non availability.
The average customer knows not the details, but simply observes that the "new trains are shorter" Most days last week saw at least a dozen services formed of a single 5 car unit, when either 5+5 or 9 cars was expected.

Most of the 800s I've seen have been 9s or 2x5s, only a small amount have been 1x5
 

cactustwirly

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I think the only diagrammed 5 cars would be on North Cotswolds turns - any others would be "short forms".

My point being that 'short forms' only affect a small amount of services, not the masses that have been implied
 

jimm

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Not enough Luggage Space?

Has anyone been on a set where this has been an acute problem?

The poster you are referring to has been busy telling the world about his dislike of the 800s and the IEP programme generally on another forum, with occasional appearances here, for a number of years now. The basic script hasn't really changed since they were still at the design stage and probably never will.

I think the only diagrammed 5 cars would be on North Cotswolds turns - any others would be "short forms".

There are now a number of regular five-car duties between Paddington and Oxford, in addition to those continuing to/coming off the Cotswold Line (the correct name for the Oxford-Worcester route, in use since the 1970s).
 

wils180

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Not enough Luggage Space?

Has anyone been on a set where this has been an acute problem?

This is a real problem, particularly Friday evenings and Sunday’s. When they head down to Devon and Cornwall it will be much worse. I have to chuck stuff in the powercar most weekends.
 

broadgage

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I have indeed been very critical of the IEP programme and the resulting new trains, on another forum and sometimes here.
Many of my negative predictions have been borne out by the facts.

Before the details were finalised, I forecast that the new trains would have no buffet. Such views were regarded as being unduly negative.
They have no buffet.
I also stated that most of the fleet would be short units. Over half the order is 5 car, with a minority of full length ones.
I forecast mainly bus style seating with only a small number of tables. Fewer than half the seats are at tables. I can remember the original HST layout of 16 tables per coach.
More relevant at the present, I also forecast that short formations would be a regular event. A dozen short trains per weekday is now the new normal.

And remember that the long distance services have yet to be downgraded to DMU operation. It will be interesting when a single 5 car unit turns up for say the 19-03 to Penzance.
Luggage space is already insufficient, summer Saturday services to the far west will be interesting when passengers with surfboards and cycles turn up.
 

absolutelymilk

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Don't GWR run around 200 long distance trains a day (at a guess, looking at their service pattern)? So a dozen of these would be about 5%, which doesn't seem overly high. If one HST breaks down, then isn't it better to run two short formed trains rather than cancel one and run the other full length? I'm not sure how you think IEPs are contributing to this problem, don't GWR have more carriages overall now than they used to?
 

jimm

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I have indeed been very critical of the IEP programme and the resulting new trains, on another forum and sometimes here.
Many of my negative predictions have been borne out by the facts.

Before the details were finalised, I forecast that the new trains would have no buffet. Such views were regarded as being unduly negative.
They have no buffet.
I also stated that most of the fleet would be short units. Over half the order is 5 car, with a minority of full length ones.
I forecast mainly bus style seating with only a small number of tables. Fewer than half the seats are at tables. I can remember the original HST layout of 16 tables per coach.
More relevant at the present, I also forecast that short formations would be a regular event. A dozen short trains per weekday is now the new normal.

And remember that the long distance services have yet to be downgraded to DMU operation. It will be interesting when a single 5 car unit turns up for say the 19-03 to Penzance.
Luggage space is already insufficient, summer Saturday services to the far west will be interesting when passengers with surfboards and cycles turn up.

You may still be clinging to some 1960s or 1970s version of what an express train should look like, but I am afraid that things generally, plus the sheer number of people using trains, have moved on since the days when a seven-coach HST with two full trailer firsts, a restaurant-kitchen car, a separate buffet-second coach and just three trailer seconds, was considered up to the job on the Great Western.

Those seven-coach HSTs with separate restaurant and buffet cars seated fewer second class passengers (a whole 251 of them) than a five-coach IET does in standard class these days. No wonder the Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet was quickly devised to allow an extra three dozen seats to be provided in second class, by putting all the catering services into one coach, then the TGS coaches were inserted in the 1980s to further increase second class capacity.

You may like playing footsie under a table and silver-service dining, many other people prefer to sit in an airline seat and grab a sandwich at the station before catching their train.

It has been noted often enough here and elsewhere that the full fleet of five-car 800s is still not available to GWR, which means that Hitachi has to cover 32 daily diagrams with 32 sets, instead of 36, and somehow also carry out programmed maintenance and handle unexpected faults. In that situation. some short-forms are almost inevitable, unless you are expecting Hitachi to achieve faultless performance day after day. If short-forming continues to happen frequently when the full 800 and 802 fleets are available, that would be cause for concern, but we are not at that stage yet.

And as I have pointed out previously, short-forming has been happening on GWR services for quite some time - just that people travelling to the likes of Bristol, Cardiff and the South West were insulated from it, because the short-forms were 180s and Turbos on Oxford and Cotswold services that should have been HSTs, with the HST 'donated' to the other routes. The Turbos were usually obtained by taking a set off a service that was supposed to be operated by a pair of Turbos, so Thames Valley passengers also lost out - but out of sight, out of mind...
 

43096

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My perception is that outside the enthusiast community, people like them. Obviously they're going to be unhappy if a short formed one turns up on a busy train however.
Is that why the season ticket holders were actively looking for an HST at Paddington, then?
 

w1bbl3

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I forecast mainly bus style seating with only a small number of tables. Fewer than half the seats are at tables. I can remember the original HST layout of 16 tables per coach.

The GWR HST coach layout has for many years prior to IEP being conceived consisted of few tables with airline seating to try accommodate passenger demand for seats. The BR mk4's on introduction consisted of mostly airline seating so the concept of tables being limited is not some new a unique thing to the 800's it has been standard UK railway practice for thirty odd years even under BR.
Indeed the current layout sees a 8 coach HST service have only 6 or 15 standard class tables. A 5 car 800 for comparison has 24 for standard class passengers so actually offers substantially more tables in both relative terms and absolute terms.
 

Harbornite

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Is that why the season ticket holders were actively looking for an HST at Paddington, then?

Big deal. If there were hordes of passengers complaining then your point would be valid, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
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