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GWR Class 800

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Charlie M.

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This thread is a loop. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Let’s come up with something new, let’s talk about the hard seats. No one had mentioned it yet. :D
 
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broadgage

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I have no reason to doubt the reasons for regular short formations, but no matter how valid the reasons are, the average customer still sees

Old trains (full length HSTs)= Good, likely to get a seat.
New trains, often 5 car IETs=Bad often have to stand.

A lot of money was spent on advertising the improved capacity of the new trains, and on Bristol and Cardiff services in particular this has not yet been reliably delivered, excellent though the reasons no doubt are.

On the GWR forum, and to a lesser extent on this forum, I forecast that regular short formations would result from the introduction of new shorter units.
Such views were widely criticised as being unduly negative, with various respected members pointing out services would be improved.
Well the new trains are here now, and after nearly a year of regular use, short formations ARE a frequent event, though no doubt for excellent and unavoidable reasons.
Advocates of the new DMUs have had to change their tune from "stop forecasting doom, wait and see how wonderful it will be" to instead "short formations are not that bad, much better than no train" and "some units are being used for staff training" or "the full fleet has yet to be delivered" and of course "teething problems are inevitable"
All of the above are no doubt factually correct, but the end result is still a considerable difference from that which was promised.
 

D1009

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I have no reason to doubt the reasons for regular short formations, but no matter how valid the reasons are, the average customer still sees

Old trains (full length HSTs)= Good, likely to get a seat.
New trains, often 5 car IETs=Bad often have to stand.

A lot of money was spent on advertising the improved capacity of the new trains, and on Bristol and Cardiff services in particular this has not yet been reliably delivered, excellent though the reasons no doubt are.

On the GWR forum, and to a lesser extent on this forum, I forecast that regular short formations would result from the introduction of new shorter units.
Such views were widely criticised as being unduly negative, with various respected members pointing out services would be improved.
Well the new trains are here now, and after nearly a year of regular use, short formations ARE a frequent event, though no doubt for excellent and unavoidable reasons.
Advocates of the new DMUs have had to change their tune from "stop forecasting doom, wait and see how wonderful it will be" to instead "short formations are not that bad, much better than no train" and "some units are being used for staff training" or "the full fleet has yet to be delivered" and of course "teething problems are inevitable"
All of the above are no doubt factually correct, but the end result is still a considerable difference from that which was promised.
So what should be done?
 

FGW_DID

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Can someone give the Gramophone a kick please, the record appears to have got stuck! :rolleyes:
 

The Ham

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Can someone give the Gramophone a kick please, the record appears to have got stuck! :rolleyes:

Quite, to save time just read the following one hundred times:

1 - I told you there would be lots of short forms if you order 5 coach units.

2 - the reason there's short forms is the correct number of units haven't been delivered and the old units (HST) are being taken as fast as possible to meet other deadlines

1 - it didn't used to be a problem

2 - it was a problem, it just didn't used to impact your services
 

Mag_seven

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Quite, to save time just read the following one hundred times:

1 - I told you there would be lots of short forms if you order 5 coach units.

2 - the reason there's short forms is the correct number of units haven't been delivered and the old units (HST) are being taken as fast as possible to meet other deadlines

1 - it didn't used to be a problem

2 - it was a problem, it just didn't used to impact your services

I suspect we will probably all end up just shouting the phrase "hard seats" at one another ad infinitum.
 

jimm

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I have no reason to doubt the reasons for regular short formations, but no matter how valid the reasons are, the average customer still sees

Old trains (full length HSTs)= Good, likely to get a seat.
New trains, often 5 car IETs=Bad often have to stand.

A lot of money was spent on advertising the improved capacity of the new trains, and on Bristol and Cardiff services in particular this has not yet been reliably delivered, excellent though the reasons no doubt are.

On the GWR forum, and to a lesser extent on this forum, I forecast that regular short formations would result from the introduction of new shorter units.
Such views were widely criticised as being unduly negative, with various respected members pointing out services would be improved.
Well the new trains are here now, and after nearly a year of regular use, short formations ARE a frequent event, though no doubt for excellent and unavoidable reasons.
Advocates of the new DMUs have had to change their tune from "stop forecasting doom, wait and see how wonderful it will be" to instead "short formations are not that bad, much better than no train" and "some units are being used for staff training" or "the full fleet has yet to be delivered" and of course "teething problems are inevitable"
All of the above are no doubt factually correct, but the end result is still a considerable difference from that which was promised.

Perhaps I am a very non-average passenger than, because in the past 10 months, I have yet to travel on a single short-formed IET service, but have somehow managed to be on a couple in recent weeks that were long-formed, with a nine-car instead of a five-car.

If you have no reason to doubt the reasons for short-forms, why do you keep droning on and on about it as though you don't understand/couldn't care less what the reasons are? So you can go 'I told you so' day after day, irrespective of the context?

What do you expect GWR to do - produce replacements for the still-to-be-delivered five-car sets on a 3D printer? Until those three sets turn up there will still be issues.

When you started going on and on about short-forms on the GW Passengers Forum years ago, that was in a context where you were claiming it would be a daily feature of life on GWR forever with the IETs, not a largely short-term one due to late delivery of a few sets.

Short-forming will still happen in years to come due to occasional faults on trains - no one is claiming it won't - but that is no different from what has been happening for years with HSTs being shuffled about and 180s or Turbos standing in for them to Oxford and the Cotswold Line. You really do have an 'out of sight, out of mind' approach when it comes to still repeating your favourite myth that short-forms never used to happen.

If there is still a problem with short-forms when the full fleet of 800s and 802s is in traffic, that might be the time to drone on and on about it - not while the GWR express fleet remains in a state of flux due to the transition from HSTs to IETs, which still has something like six months to run.

I expect if we were transported back in time to 1976-77 you would probably have been going on and on about a Class 47 or 50 and a ragbag selection of Mk2 coaches without a buffet car turning up instead of the broken HST that was supposed to be on your service.

Had BR been under government orders to send a loco and a rake of coaches off to Scotland or the scrapyard the instant a shiny new HST turned up at Old Oak Common, they too might have struggled to find a stand-in train with the same seating capacity at times back then.

And no sign of a short-formed IET so far today on GWR Journeycheck, despite it being a "regular" feature. You really should look up the dictionary definition of the word regular - because that's not what is happening on GWR.
 

Fearless

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Maybe you should look more closely at things before citing them as 'evidence' of anything.
...
Not forgetting, of course, that people who want to have a moan about something are far more likely to head to TripAdvisor than those who got on their train, were transported from A to B without any problems and have better things to do with their time than post something saying GWR did its job. TripAdvisor is in no way a representative sample of public opinion on anything.

I didn't use the word 'evidence', that was your word. The point I was making is the same as yours - that some people moan, and putting their views on TripAdvisor will create a bad impression for those who use TripAdvisor for guidance.
 

JonasB

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How likely are future orders?

If I'm not mistaken, GWR, LNER, Hull Trains and TransPennine Express have ordered 800s/801s/802s. But will we see more?

Grand Central, CrossCountry and East Midlands Trains seems to me like companies that could have use for bi modes.
 

Bikeman78

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As has been mentioned before - when there weren’t HSTs available Oxfords and Worcesters were routinely cancelled or covered with a 2/3 car Turbo vice HST. Now that that’s not an option (with few Turbos in Paddington in the evening peak) Bristols and Swanseas have to suffer instead.
I think you're flogging a dead horse here. People in Cardiff or Bristol don't care about trains to Oxford any more than they care about the ongoing DMU shortage in Norwich. Moving the problem off one route to two others is not a success story.
 

Domh245

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How likely are future orders?

If I'm not mistaken, GWR, LNER, Hull Trains and TransPennine Express have ordered 800s/801s/802s. But will we see more?

Grand Central, CrossCountry and East Midlands Trains seems to me like companies that could have use for bi modes.

GWR and LNER had 800s and 801s ordered for them by the DfT. GWR then ordered some 802s for West Country services off of their own back, and subsequently options from that order were taken up by TPE and Hull Trains. The only future TOCs likely to order any more of them are new-XC and East Midlands Railway, and maybe the next West Coast franchise or future open access operators, but beyond that, nobody needs 125mph capable IC bi-modes, and Grand Central believe the future lies with 180s (ha!). There is also a non-zero chance that the XC and EMR new bi-modes could be the Bombardier product rather than Hitachi, but that depends on what bidders propose.

Even then, if there weren't to be any further orders, 1222 vehicles across 182 trainsets is pretty good going.
 

The Ham

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I think you're flogging a dead horse here. People in Cardiff or Bristol don't care about trains to Oxford any more than they care about the ongoing DMU shortage in Norwich. Moving the problem off one route to two others is not a success story.

I agree, however that is very different to "there wasn't a problem before with HST's being cancelled".

They were cancelled they just didn't impact those it now impacts.

If you are going to cancel two trains in an hour is it better that they are both serving one line (meaning a two hour gap in services and 3 loads of passengers on one train) or that they are spread around so that the maximum delay is reduced (meaning a one hour delay and two loads of passengers on one train but on two lines)?

It's also worth remembering that the 5 coach 80x's have about 60% of the capacity of a high density HST, so yes a busy service will be very full. However on quieter services it is less of a problem.
 

The Ham

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GWR and LNER had 800s and 801s ordered for them by the DfT. GWR then ordered some 802s for West Country services off of their own back, and subsequently options from that order were taken up by TPE and Hull Trains. The only future TOCs likely to order any more of them are new-XC and East Midlands Railway, and maybe the next West Coast franchise or future open access operators, but beyond that, nobody needs 125mph capable IC bi-modes, and Grand Central believe the future lies with 180s (ha!). There is also a non-zero chance that the XC and EMR new bi-modes could be the Bombardier product rather than Hitachi, but that depends on what bidders propose.

Even then, if there weren't to be any further orders, 1222 vehicles across 182 trainsets is pretty good going.

It could be possible that GWR could order some more, although I would guess that any such order would likely be groups of 4 central coaches to allow them to lengthen sine of their 5 coach units to 9 coaches or individual central coaches to allow them to lengthen their 9 coach units to 10 coaches.
 

Clarence Yard

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GWR and LNER had 800s and 801s ordered for them by the DfT. GWR then ordered some 802s for West Country services off of their own back, and subsequently options from that order were taken up by TPE and Hull Trains.

Just for the sake of historical accuracy, the TPE and Hull Trains 802 sets were the subject of separate procurement exercises, not using the GWR option which has since lapsed.

Personally, I would like to see some more intermediate cars ordered to lengthen the GWR sets. If that also enables sets to be released for use on XC or East Midlands, the DfT may well be interested.
 

gingertom

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I’d say five into nine with a buffet, and then if enough money 9 into 10.
would the 10th vehicle be powered? Many comments on here about the performance on diesel so I'd be suggesting it has motors and an engine. Will the transformer and switchgear cope with having a 6th powered vehicle without needing a (potentially expensive) upgrade? Think back to when some of the 9-car Pendolinos were extended to 11- one vehicle was powered and the unpowered trailer fitted with a transformer as the other transformers didn't have enough spare capacity to power an additional powered vehicle. Devil is in the detail.
 

Mag_seven

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I'm not even sure how easy it is to add in extra coaches etc. I think we need to let things settle down with the 5/9 car sets before we start talking about adding additional vehicles.
 

gsnedders

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I'm not even sure how easy it is to add in extra coaches etc. I think we need to let things settle down with the 5/9 car sets before we start talking about adding additional vehicles.
The IEP specification requires for trains up to 312m long (12x26m), and it must be possible to add "Intermediate IEP Vehicles" up until that point (and those are simply any non-cab vehicle). So provided Hitachi have complied with the specification, you can just add them. And note they have to maintain the journey time performance requirements specified under 25kV power while that long.
 

gingertom

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The IEP specification requires for trains up to 312m long (12x26m), and it must be possible to add "Intermediate IEP Vehicles" up until that point (and those are simply any non-cab vehicle). So provided Hitachi have complied with the specification, you can just add them. And note they have to maintain the journey time performance requirements specified under 25kV power while that long.
...which implies powered vehicles, so it looks as though we have nothing to worry about when the time comes to extend them when passenger demand warrants it.
 

The Ham

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Shouldn't you use capital letters if you want to SHOUT!!

Yes, but we've not reached that stage yet. It was said in the end we'll all be shouting hard seats. I don't think we've reached the end yet, so I'm not shoutng yet!
 

Bletchleyite

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For those of us who have been following the thread from the start, continued and prolonged discussion of the seats has become very tedious. The subject has been done to death many times over.

This probably says something about them. The Voyager is probably the most "Marmite" train out there, but the seats in those barely get a mention.
 

ainsworth74

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Discussion about HSTs and their status as a DMU or as LHCS is very much off-topic and the posts we had can now be found on a new thread here. Please continue the discussion there.
 

jimm

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I didn't use the word 'evidence', that was your word. The point I was making is the same as yours - that some people moan, and putting their views on TripAdvisor will create a bad impression for those who use TripAdvisor for guidance.

No idea what you were trying to demonstrate - you posted without giving a link to the Tripadvisor thread (if you are referring something it is hardly a stressful task to give a link, is it?) and just said it was headed 'GWR's new trains' - which might tend to suggest that all the posts covered by the list of numbers were about GWR's new trains, except they weren't.

I’d say five into nine with a buffet, and then if enough money 9 into 10.

Could you actually explain why you think the five-car sets should be extended to nine-car sets.

There is no way on earth that large numbers of the services that the IETs will be working for many years will ever need a 630-seat train - a fair number of the five-cars are replacing 180s and Turbos or providing new services such as the hourly Cheltenham-London frequency and the extra 2tph limited-stop off-peak trains between Bristol and London.

If the entire Bristol service was worked by nine-car sets, you would be offering 2,500 seats per hour in either direction all day. Good luck with getting enough bums on seats to come even close to breaking even on the costs of running that lot up and down.

The full IET fleet already provides a substantial capacity increase on what it is replacing. At a time when growth in passenger numbers has pretty much stalled across the network, proposing massive over-capacity is not a great idea.
 
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