Class 80x Sleep Mode

[trv100]

The Class 80x is described as having a Sleep Mode, activated automatically after 15 minutes of inactivity (reverser to off with no master key in). when sleep mode is activated it turns off air con and saloon lighting. do TOCs actually use this feature? i've never noticed an 800 with no lights or air con on.

Edit: nevermind, upon further reading the mode is cancelled when doors are released or there are any passengers onboard

 

[DanNCL]

If the doors are released unless it's DOO (in which case the driver shouldn't be leaving the train unattended for 15 minutes with passengers onboard) the guard will be keyed in and that'll prevent sleep mode from activating with passengers onboard. My understanding is that this feature is there for overnight stabling, effectively as a way of shutting down the air con and saloon lighting should for whatever reason the crew not do so when they leave.

 

[ComUtoR]

Edit: nevermind, upon further reading the mode is cancelled when doors are released or there are any passengers onboard

How does it know passengers are on board ?

 

[DanNCL]

How does it know passengers are on board ?

It doesn't, but it's a reasonable assumption for the TMS to make if for 15 minutes both the master key is out and no guards panel is active. A train wouldn't be left locked with passengers onboard for that long without either a driver or a guard.

 

[ComUtoR]

It doesn't, but it's a reasonable assumption for the TMS to make if for 15 minutes both the master key is out and no guards panel is active.

The TMS isn't making an assumption; it would have to be programmed to shut off after 15 minutes.

A train wouldn't be left locked with passengers onboard for that long without either a driver or a guard.

Another assumption. It happens. I've done it more than once.

I would be interested to have any source that I could read.

 

[jon0844]

387s do the same, which can be seen if, say, there's engineering work that sees a unit sitting idle for 30-40 minutes [think of the recent RRB service between Royston and Hitchin], and the doors are kept open to allow passengers to board early. The driver is most likely taking a break nearby or sitting on the unit, but not in the cab itself.

Not sure what it does with the HVAC but certainly you get the emergency lighting (selected fixtures remaining on, but probably only a handful per coach).

Perhaps on the refurbished units, the now LED lights dim? 700s (and other Desiro Cities) have different brightness levels, for example.

 

[DanNCL]

The TMS isn't making an assumption; it would have to be programmed to shut off after 15 minutes.

You knew what I meant.

Another assumption. It happens. I've done it more than once.

Sorry, you're saying it's normal to effectively abandon passengers on a completely unstaffed train with the doors locked so they can't get off?

I wasn't talking about with the doors open here, I was talking about with the doors closed and locked.

387s do the same, which can be seen if, say, there's engineering work that sees a unit sitting idle for 30-40 minutes [think of the recent RRB service between Royston and Hitchin], and the doors are kept open to allow passengers to board early. The driver is most likely taking a break nearby or sitting on the unit, but not in the cab itself.

Not sure what it does with the HVAC but certainly you get the emergency lighting (selected fixtures remaining on, but probably only a handful per coach).

Perhaps on the refurbished units, the now LED lights dim? 700s (and other Desiro Cities) have different brightness levels, for example.

Certainly up here in the North trains sitting open to passengers without any staff on board for more than 5 minutes is virtually unheard of. If there's no guard, the passengers are on the platform, or in the case of DOO if the driver is away for more than a few minutes again the passengers are on the platform.

 

[TurboMan]

It doesn't, but it's a reasonable assumption for the TMS to make if for 15 minutes both the master key is out and no guards panel is active. A train wouldn't be left locked with passengers onboard for that long without either a driver or a guard.

The 15 minute timer resets if any of the internal doors (gangway/vestibule but not UAT) open or close, indicating the presence of someone on board.

If the doors are released unless it's DOO (in which case the driver shouldn't be leaving the train unattended for 15 minutes with passengers onboard) the guard will be keyed in and that'll prevent sleep mode from activating with passengers onboard. My understanding is that this feature is there for overnight stabling, effectively as a way of shutting down the air con and saloon lighting should for whatever reason the crew not do so when they leave.

You sure about that? The Hitachi TOM only specifies the driving cab being active.

 

[DanNCL]

The 15 minute timer resets if any of the internal doors (gangway/vestibule but not UAT) open or close, indicating the presence of someone on board.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying this.

You sure about that? The Hitachi TOM only specifies the driving cab being active.

I may be wrong, I presumed they were linked to one common system given that both offer control over the doors.

 

[800001]

How does it know passengers are on board ?

The train has sensors at each door way, that count people on/off the train. So in theory the train should know if people are onboard.

 

[DanNCL]

The train has sensors at each door way, that count people on/off the train. So in theory the train should know if people are onboard.

Surely though that can’t distinguish between passengers and staff boarding/alighting?

 

[TurboMan]

Surely though that can’t distinguish between passengers and staff boarding/alighting?

It doesn't need to.

 

[800001]

Surely though that can’t distinguish between passengers and staff boarding/alighting?

The whole idea is it should No if train is empty, so if no one on board staff/customer then sleep mode should activate.

 

[Horizon22]

387s do the same, which can be seen if, say, there's engineering work that sees a unit sitting idle for 30-40 minutes [think of the recent RRB service between Royston and Hitchin], and the doors are kept open to allow passengers to board early. The driver is most likely taking a break nearby or sitting on the unit, but not in the cab itself.

Not sure what it does with the HVAC but certainly you get the emergency lighting (selected fixtures remaining on, but probably only a handful per coach).

Perhaps on the refurbished units, the now LED lights dim? 700s (and other Desiro Cities) have different brightness levels, for example.

They can actively be put into "turnaround" modes too to aid train clearance and I think most modern (last 10ish years) stock have similar functionality.

 

[ComUtoR]

You knew what I meant.

Maybe, but it isn't what you said. The TMS could potentially be programmed with some form of decision making logic. I wasn't 100% sure, so I asked.

Sorry, you're saying it's normal to effectively abandon passengers on a completely unstaffed train with the doors locked so they can't get off?

Not 'normal' but not uncommon.

I wasn't talking about with the doors open here, I was talking about with the doors closed and locked.

Yep, totally got that.

Certainly up here in the North trains sitting open to passengers without any staff on board for more than 5 minutes is virtually unheard of.

I work in the south.

If there's no guard, the passengers are on the platform, or in the case of DOO if the driver is away for more than a few minutes again

In DOO land.

the passengers are on the platform.

What about those times where there is no platform ? Things tend to go wrong and Drivers need to leave the cab, and even leave the unit. 15 minutes feels a little short and would have been deliberately chosen and programmed in. If the unit is detecting passengers in some way, that would act as a failsafe. If it's just shutting down HVAC and lighting then potentially it's not an issue as it's saving battery for critical systems.

Is the HVAC linked to fire safety ?

The train has sensors at each door way, that count people on/off the train. So in theory the train should know if people are onboard.

Are they at every door ? We have them on a few of our units but they aren't accurate and only at specific doors. Passenger loading is measured and to have that linked to onboard systems certainly tickles my interest.

 

[Horizon22]

I wasn't talking about with the doors open here, I was talking about with the doors closed and locked.

Wouldn't happen with passengers on-board, that would be once it is ready to go ECS or is being stabled which would require train clearance by staff. A "sleep mode" would be more of the train going into 'standby' I presume if it is just sitting on a platform for an extended period?

 

[ComUtoR]

The 15 minute timer resets if any of the internal doors (gangway/vestibule but not UAT)

UAT ? Cheers in advance.

 

[43096]

UAT ? Cheers in advance.

Universal Access Toilet, I assume.

 

[snakeydave24]

“15 minutes after the driving cab is deactivated, the unit will go in to Sleep Mode. Certain systems such as saloon lighting and air conditioning will be deactivated in order to save energy. Sleep Mode is deactivated when a cab is activated, when any external door is opened, or when the passenger counting system detects the presence of a person on board.

The train can be prevented from entering Sleep Mode for 30 minutes by pressing the Sleep Mode Cancel pushbutton,The driving desk does not need to be active for this to function.”

 

[Horizon22]

UAT ? Cheers in advance.

Universal Accessible Toilet I think.

 

[800001]

Maybe, but it isn't what you said. The TMS could potentially be programmed with some form of decision making logic. I wasn't 100% sure, so I asked.



Not 'normal' but not uncommon.



Yep, totally got that.



I work in the south.



In DOO land.



What about those times where there is no platform ? Things tend to go wrong and Drivers need to leave the cab, and even leave the unit. 15 minutes feels a little short and would have been deliberately chosen and programmed in. If the unit is detecting passengers in some way, that would act as a failsafe. If it's just shutting down HVAC and lighting then potentially it's not an issue as it's saving battery for critical systems.

Is the HVAC linked to fire safety ?



Are they at every door ? We have them on a few of our units but they aren't accurate and only at specific doors. Passenger loading is measured and to have that linked to onboard systems certainly tickles my interest.

Yes they are above every entrance door I believe. (not 100% sure)

 

[Horizon22]

“15 minutes after the driving cab is deactivated, the unit will go in to Sleep Mode. Certain systems such as saloon lighting and air conditioning will be deactivated in order to save energy. Sleep Mode is deactivated when a cab is activated, when any external door is opened, or when the passenger counting system detects the presence of a person on board.”

So effectively when the train is locked up and empty although not necessarily true.

 

[TurboMan]

Universal Accessible Toilet I think.

Yes, sorry, I should have explained that!

 

[ComUtoR]

“15 minutes after the driving cab is deactivated, the unit will go in to Sleep Mode. Certain systems such as saloon lighting and air conditioning will be deactivated in order to save energy. Sleep Mode is deactivated when a cab is activated, when any external door is opened, or when the passenger counting system detects the presence of a person on board.

Because the door being opened deactivates the system. Does this then mean that interlock isn't required ? (With all doors closed but not 'locked' )

 

[TurboMan]

They can actively be put into "turnaround" modes too to aid train clearance and I think most modern (last 10ish years) stock have similar functionality.

Turnaround mode on 80x shuts down all but one GU (5 car) or 2 GUs (9 car) if in diesel mode, but doesn't in itself have any other effect - it's just a fuel/emissions saving feature while still providing power to the auxiliaries.

387s have something called off peak mode which shuts off the HVAC and most of the lighting, and disables the external passenger door open buttons - the internal buttons remain enabled so anyone on board can alight, but passengers on the platform can't board.

Because the door being opened deactivates the system. Does this then mean that interlock isn't required ? (With all doors closed but not 'locked' )

Yes, interlock isn't required.

 

[800301]

Yes they are above every entrance door I believe. (not 100% sure)

They are at all external doors internally, there are also sensors above in the gangway and the at each of the internal doors to each carriage so the train roughly knows how many people are in each bit but how accurate it is...

 

[Horizon22]

Turnaround mode on 80x shuts down all but one GU (5 car) or 2 GUs (9 car) if in diesel mode, but doesn't in itself have any other effect - it's just a fuel/emissions saving feature while still providing power to the auxiliaries.

387s have something called off peak mode which shuts off the HVAC and most of the lighting, and disables the external passenger door open buttons - the internal buttons remain enabled so anyone on board can alight, but passengers on the platform can't board.


Yes, interlock isn't required.

That's the one! I think all manufacturers given them slightly different names and have slight variations on the same process.

 

[scotraildriver]

Our 385s are the same. Unfortunately it means when taking a train off the depot the saloons are freezing cold as the HVAC has turned off.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The train has sensors at each door way, that count people on/off the train. So in theory the train should know if people are onboard.

They are not accurate. If 100 passengers get on in coach L,walk through to coach A and alight it will still say there are 100 passengers in coach L. It’s also possible to watch the figures go up and down when on the move.