Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[furnessvale]

Well if we are going undiplomatic - the taxpayer, the same people that pays for the [for the most part] hopelessly uneconomic freight industry.

But with a scrappage scheme an electrodiesel locomotive would win on operational costs versus the Class 66 by virtue of being more modern (Class 66s are hardly spring chickens any more) and having far lower fuel costs y virtue of using electricity for significant portions of their diagrams.

You missed the word "road" out between uneconomic and freight.

Road haulage receives vastly more subsidy than rail freight.

 

[CosherB]

Have people been on the egg nog already? Where on earth has the idea of large scale freight loco replacement come from?! Face facts, freight will be substantially hauled in the UK by Class 66s for the next 20-odd years, along with a couple of dozen each of 60s and 70s.

The likes of the 88s are unproven and it remains to be seen what DRS use them on. I don't foresee a huge dash for other 88s or 'proper' bi-mode locos in the UK any time soon.

 

[Sunbird24]

It does now appear that no class 88s have yet left Valencia. 1, 2, 6, 7 & 9 were visible there today with possibly more unidentified and hidden behind two tram units.

 

[dgl]

I see the CL88 as an excellent bargaining tool by DRS and potential customers that want to use rail as a low carbon transport and that this would have even lower carbon emissions than other operators who would use a diesel locomotive but removes the time and effort of having to change locos during the journey. it also has the advantage of if the wires do come down the train can at least move, even if a quite a slow speed.

Also it brings a modern AC locomotive to Britain and hopefully something that is more reliable than what it currently on offer.

 

[CosherB]

I see the CL88 as an excellent bargaining tool by DRS and potential customers that want to use rail as a low carbon transport and that this would have even lower carbon emissions than other operators who would use a diesel locomotive but removes the time and effort of having to change locos during the journey. it also has the advantage of if the wires do come down the train can at least move, even if a quite a slow speed.

Also it brings a modern AC locomotive to Britain and hopefully something that is more reliable than what it currently on offer.

What's wrong with DBC or Freightliner 90s?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's wrong with DBC or Freightliner 90s?

Class 90s can't collect the train if the customer siding isn't electrified, it would require a diesel loco to haul the train out of a customer siding to a place where a class 90 could attach.

A class 88 could haul the train out of the customer siding in diesel mode then once under the wires raise the pan and switch to electric mode

 

[Monty]

What's wrong with DBC or Freightliner 90s?

I imagine they can use the fact that the loco has a small and modern diesel engine for shunting in unelectrified yards, which means you are not reliant on small and obsolescent diesel shunters as a major selling point.

 

[dgl]

Exactly, there are probably a few flows that could be done using electrified locos but the depot is a few miles off the electrified line and changing from an electric to diesel (and the other way round if necessary) is not cost effective or would take to long.

These can now be done with electric propulsion for 98% of the journey with the small diesel engine taking over for the remaining non-electrified part of the journey, reducing the carbon emissions of the working considerably.

 

[Rhydgaled]

running off the 3rd rail in 3rd rail territory (or would it probably overload the 3rd rail?)

Class 92s have a 3rd rail mode and, according to Wikipedia, can still manage 5,360hp when using it. That is less than the 6,760hp Wikipedia claims the 92s do under OHLE, but still significantly more than a diesel loco. Do they overload the 3rd rail?

 

[43074]

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see a couple of hundred of them built, maybe with a few being trim-mode for running off the 3rd rail in 3rd rail territory (or would it probably overload the 3rd rail?)

With falling demand for rail-freight in general, who on earth is going to pay for a couple of hundred of 88s? Ok there may well be more orders, yes, but I think you are being over-optimistic there. Even 50 locos seems optimistic.

 

[furnessvale]

With falling demand for rail-freight in general, who on earth is going to pay for a couple of hundred of 88s? Ok there may well be more orders, yes, but I think you are being over-optimistic there. Even 50 locos seems optimistic.

Indeed, and the smaller the order, the higher the unit cost until the whole thing isn't viable.

Without a large pick up in railfreight use, or compulsion by HMG on pollution grounds, I can see 66s running most freight for many years to come.

 

[Sunbird24]

There is no denying that the Class 66 was a successful design which has proved itself in many countries, however it is now becoming outdated in terms of emission and out of production, hence in years to come there will become a shortage of spares. It was ordered 20 years ago to replace part of a fleet which was then at an average age of 30 years, with many being used as spare parts donors. In another 10 years or so the class 66 could well find itself in a similar situation of rising repair costs and spares shortages leading to longer down-times.
Tie this in to the amount of electrification expected in the same time frame, the fact that many manufacturers are now producing and selling bi-modes in many countries for both freight and passenger use, the orders will come, not necessarily now but over the coming years. TPE need up to 19 class 68's for the new Mk 5A coaching stock which is being built now and once that line is electrified these could well be replaced by a similar number of 88's, provided that they have proved themselves in service by that time. It is known that the 68's will eventually become the mainstay of the DRS fleet with 20's, 37's, 47's and 57's being phased out as they and the 88's become available.
A number of new franchises will be coming up in the next few years with targets of improved efficiency, better trains, etc. could see orders for more new hauled passener stock. At the same time further advances in technology could well see a more powerful diesel engine for the class 88, or from a similar model from another manufacturer.
There is not a huge demand for bi-mode locomotives right now but I foresee that in perhaps 10-20 years time the situation may well have changed. Already the class 800 order has been changed to include more bi-mode models to give the new fleet extra flexibility. It would not surprise me to see the north-south and the Felixstowe to north-west freight arteries being electrified also in another 20 years.

 

[leomartin125]

There is no denying that the Class 66 was a successful design which has proved itself in many countries, however it is now becoming outdated in terms of emission and out of production, hence in years to come there will become a shortage of spares. It was ordered 20 years ago to replace part of a fleet which was then at an average age of 30 years, with many being used as spare parts donors. In another 10 years or so the class 66 could well find itself in a similar situation of rising repair costs and spares shortages leading to longer down-times.
Tie this in to the amount of electrification expected in the same time frame, the fact that many manufacturers are now producing and selling bi-modes in many countries for both freight and passenger use, the orders will come, not necessarily now but over the coming years. TPE need up to 19 class 68's for the new Mk 5A coaching stock which is being built now and once that line is electrified these could well be replaced by a similar number of 88's, provided that they have proved themselves in service by that time. It is known that the 68's will eventually become the mainstay of the DRS fleet with 20's, 37's, 47's and 57's being phased out as they and the 88's become available.
A number of new franchises will be coming up in the next few years with targets of improved efficiency, better trains, etc. could see orders for more new hauled passener stock. At the same time further advances in technology could well see a more powerful diesel engine for the class 88, or from a similar model from another manufacturer.
There is not a huge demand for bi-mode locomotives right now but I foresee that in perhaps 10-20 years time the situation may well have changed. Already the class 800 order has been changed to include more bi-mode models to give the new fleet extra flexibility. It would not surprise me to see the north-south and the Felixstowe to north-west freight arteries being electrified also in another 20 years.

I totally agree. Except the Class 8XX series was not changed to bi-mode 'to give the fleet extra flexibility'. It's solely because of the delays to the GWML electrification that they cannot start as previously planned, so really if GWR wanted to continue with the plan to introduce the IEP's in Summer 2017, it wouldn't be on electrical power but mostly on diesel. If the electrification had gone as planned, a lot of the IEP's would be 801's (Electric only). The Class 88 will be useful, but I can't see it aiding freight get from Southampton to Trafford Park for example, where almost half the route is non - electrified.

 

[furnessvale]

I totally agree. Except the Class 8XX series was not changed to bi-mode 'to give the fleet extra flexibility'. It's solely because of the delays to the GWML electrification that they cannot start as previously planned, so really if GWR wanted to continue with the plan to introduce the IEP's in Summer 2017, it wouldn't be on electrical power but mostly on diesel. If the electrification had gone as planned, a lot of the IEP's would be 801's (Electric only). The Class 88 will be useful, but I can't see it aiding freight get from Southampton to Trafford Park for example, where almost half the route is non - electrified.

The class 88 is a last mile electro diesel not a full bi-mode.

As far as I am aware, a full bi-mode to UK loading gauge does not even exist on the drawing board.

 

[Roast Veg]

It does not exist on the drawing board yet, but it is conceptually possible. Bombardier have already offered last mile TRAXX locos to UK gauge in the past, and the fact that high speed diesel mode EDMUs within gauge exist suggest that a full speed bi-mode loco cannot be impossible.

Bi-modes only exist now thanks to advancements in material science and traction packages. The question is, will the precedent for bi-modes still be there by the time everything can fit into the space constraint?

I'd like to see a design for an articulated locomotive of this sort - if you made the loco long enough and had an additional bogie in the middle, would it be viable? It would at least be interesting to look at.

 

[Mollman]

As far as I am aware, a full bi-mode to UK loading gauge does not even exist on the drawing board.

So what's a class 75?

The likes of the 88s are unproven and it remains to be seen what DRS use them on. I don't foresee a huge dash for other 88s or 'proper' bi-mode locos in the UK any time soon.

You're forgetting that the IEP is unproved yet people seem to keep ordering more of them!

 

[hwl]

With falling demand for rail-freight in general, who on earth is going to pay for a couple of hundred of 88s? Ok there may well be more orders, yes, but I think you are being over-optimistic there. Even 50 locos seems optimistic.

I'd expect to see a reasonable amount of construction material flows for HS2 but all diesel hauled...

 

[Sunbird24]

The class 88 is a last mile electro diesel not a full bi-mode.

As far as I am aware, a full bi-mode to UK loading gauge does not even exist on the drawing board.

The class 88 is not a last-mile diesel, it is designed to operate continuously on diesel power when necessary, though in reality due to its relatively low diesel power that would be more suited to passenger use than heavy freight work. It was tested in this mode with a 1500 ton trailing load.
The PrasaDual, already built and a full bi-mode, would probably fit the UK loading gauge as its height at 4140mm is below the UKs 4320mm maximum. I'm not certain about the width above 3 metres where it tapers in. It is however above the South African maximum of 3960mm, but Prasa said it was OK for electrified lines as their specification for those was 4.6 metres, but a lot of bridges have the wires much lower than that! The Euro 4000s they purchased have scorch marks on the roofs where they have contacted the wires and are now banned from those sections but are still in use!
A bogie change could theoretically see the PrasaDuals in the UK if they were proved to be within gauge! They only look too tall because they are on wheel sleds in the factory which does not have 3' 6" gauge track, except on a very short section of the test track.
Might be a bit out on the last point as 4160 is outside W6A! All vehicles are subject to W6A, only loads can exceed it.

 

[furnessvale]

So what's a class 75?

It's a number allocated for a projected future electro diesel, should anyone ever get round to designing one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to see a design for an articulated locomotive of this sort - if you made the loco long enough and had an additional bogie in the middle, would it be viable? It would at least be interesting to look at.

Would there be a benefit of doing that rather than having a diesel and electric locomotive both coupled to the stock with the ability to drive from any cab?

 

[furnessvale]

The class 88 is not a last-mile diesel, it is designed to operate continuously on diesel power when necessary, though in reality due to its relatively low diesel power that would be more suited to passenger use than heavy freight work. It was tested in this mode with a 1500 ton trailing load.
The PrasaDual, already built and a full bi-mode, would probably fit the UK loading gauge as its height at 4140mm is below the UKs 4320mm maximum. I'm not certain about the width above 3 metres where it tapers in. It is however above the South African maximum of 3960mm, but Prasa said it was OK for electrified lines as their specification for those was 4.6 metres, but a lot of bridges have the wires much lower than that! The Euro 4000s they purchased have scorch marks on the roofs where they have contacted the wires and are now banned from those sections but are still in use!
A bogie change could theoretically see the PrasaDuals in the UK if they were proved to be within gauge! They only look too tall because they are on wheel sleds in the factory which does not have 3' 6" gauge track, except on a very short section of the test track.
Might be a bit out on the last point as 4160 is outside W6A! All vehicles are subject to W6A, only loads can exceed it.

I see you have been back in with an edit!

4140 is well out of gauge let alone 4320. 3950 is closer to the mark! Given our unique gauge problems in the UK I doubt we could squeeze any more to use a taller loco.

Whether an 88 is a full bi-mode or last mile is very debatable. For me, a full bi-mode should be able to move its regular straight electric load under diesel power at speeds not far below its electric speed, albeit with some allowance for electrics superior performance on the hills.

I don't believe an 88 can meet that specification but it will get you out of trouble and allow for emergency diversions.

 

[Roast Veg]

Would there be a benefit of doing that rather than having a diesel and electric locomotive both coupled to the stock with the ability to drive from any cab?

A reduction in the number of traction motors, one less bogie altogether, and a shorter overall length and weight since the two articulated sections need not be as long as a full loco, as well as the missing 2 cabs. This could (if the weight could be perfectly balanced, which would be an engineering feat) give it a better RA than would normally be expected from another vehicle with the same capability.

Honestly, I don't think the track access charging system treats this kind of design well compared to places where articulated locos are used, and the complexity of distributing components would probably either not be reasonably possible or would be so prone to faults and maintenance difficulties that it wouldn't be financially viable.

But like I say, I'd love to see some technical drawings of something akin to it, even if it couldn't go past that phase.

 

[43096]

There is no denying that the Class 66 was a successful design which has proved itself in many countries, however it is now becoming outdated in terms of emission and out of production, hence in years to come there will become a shortage of spares. It was ordered 20 years ago to replace part of a fleet which was then at an average age of 30 years, with many being used as spare parts donors. In another 10 years or so the class 66 could well find itself in a similar situation of rising repair costs and spares shortages leading to longer down-times.

There is not going to be a shortage of spares for 66s for many, many years. They are basically made up of EMD standard parts, of which there is no shortage, even if EMD stops supporting. Taking just one component, the 710 engine, there are literally thousands of them in use around the world - no shortage there.

 

[Sunbird24]

It would be interesting to see the performance figures for the testing on diesel power with the 1500T load, especially a standing start from the foot of the short 1:35 section at Velim. That figure is not far short of the maximum limit for the class 68 which DRS gives as 1600Te (metric tons). Also to know what the weather conditions were like during the testing. I suspect the actual figure for operating in normal service on non-electric lines will be considerably less and at a reduced speed. Also what would be the load limit for 100 mph running in diesel mode, if indeed that will be feasible if it has to supply services such as lighting and heating. Some other countries use generator vans for this purpose or have a generator in the DVTs.

 

[Roast Veg]

I imagine the UK testing period for this loco will be very very long.

 

[CosherB]

We only have one true bi-mode loco in the UK at the moment, the 73/9 (in two different flavours). Sorry Sunbird, but 970 bhp from a Cat C27 in the 88 doesn't cut the mustard as a bi-mode in my book - it's a last mile diesel, no matter what the DRS publicity says.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

We only have one true bi-mode loco in the UK at the moment, the 73/9 (in two different flavours).

What about all the other 73s that are still in service with various TOCs and FOCs?

 

[furnessvale]

What about all the other 73s that are still in service with various TOCs and FOCs?

600 horses in diesel mode barely pulls them out of the last mile category.

Even the 73/9 with 1500 horses would need to be double headed for effective freight bi-mode working.

 

[CosherB]

What about all the other 73s that are still in service with various TOCs and FOCs?

You mean the 73s that never leave 3rd rail SR-land and probably hardly ever use their diesel engine? :roll:

 

[Sunbird24]

We only have one true bi-mode loco in the UK at the moment, the 73/9 (in two different flavours). Sorry Sunbird, but 970 bhp from a Cat C27 in the 88 doesn't cut the mustard as a bi-mode in my book - it's a last mile diesel, no matter what the DRS publicity says.

Here is a quote from the Rail Engineer: They will have a 4MW rating using ABB AC traction equipment plus a 950hp Caterpillar C27 diesel engine for use where there is no overhead line equipment. This provides more than so-called ‘last mile’ (i.e. shunting) capability. The Class 88 is a true ‘dual mode’ locomotive that has been designed to haul a train using diesel power alone. Indeed, the starting tractive effort is similar in electrical and diesel propulsion modes.
970 bhp in todays terms is a lot more than it used to be with older technology. It is quite likely to be as good as any type 2 diesel was in the old days, let alone the type 1s. The proof will come with the testing in service, but it already proved to be "beyond expectations" in the Velim trials by performing better than expected. Certainly the acceleration from a standing start with 1500 tons in diesel only mode was quite remarkable according to those who watched it. What matters most is the power at rail, not the output of the prime mover. The latest diesel engines are stated to be almost double the efficiency of the earlier ones and this trend in improvement is likely to continue over the next 10-15 years.