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Discussion in 'Railway History & Nostalgia' started by GrimShady, 27 Apr 2019.
Courtesy of the AC locomotive group:
Lower top speed seems to have been one factor at least.
Looking forward to seeing 89001 back out and about in whatever capacity that will be. From their May update, ACLG appear to have made great progress and say they're planning testing 'during 2019'..so fingers crossed.
Maybe mainline charters? Seeing as no heritage lines have OLE.
I wonder what the chances are of a preserved MK3 rake plus DVT being saved for operation with the 89.
I think they need Mk4s if they want to run at 125, ISTR that while loco-hauled Mk3s are 125 rated Mk3b DVTs are only 110mph.
Good point. Plenty of MkIVs going around soon. They don't use TDM though, they use FDM and shielded cables
I think they'd be best with Mk4s for simplicity if they can get them.
That's what I meant to say. Post corrected.
Could borrow the rake that Tornado's supposed to be getting, or the 125 group's, with the potential of the power car too.
Come to think of it, given how much Tornado's tours are often hauled by 'modern traction' as well 89001 might be the perfect loco for electrified routes.
Mk4s do use TDM for the push-pull like Mk3s, the doors/lighting are FDM btw.
The Mk3 DVTs were 125mph rated once upon a time. There could still be issues with clearance for the 89 though but I suspect clearances are better now than in 1986/87.
It was useless on the WCML unless it was working Willsden-Carlisle freights (That was the plan until it got moved to Hornsey).
I wonder when/why they downgraded them, they always seem to be referred to as 125mph max, mind you LH Mk3s often seem to be erroneously referred to as 110 maximum.
I've even see a few sources refer to the 89 as being 110mph max.
I've seen at least one mark 3 DVT in the past 5 years or so with 125mph on the data panel (think it was Greater Anglia). I've also seen 125mph on at least one non-HST mark 3 coach, but then I've also seen mark 3s with 110mph on the data panel. Could it be that mark 3a was 110mph but mark 3b is 125?
For stock to run with the 89 though I'd prefer mark 4s, as they could be shared between the 89 and 91031 (though if both a mark 4 rake and a mark 3 one complete with a DVT of each type could be preserved that would be even better)
As in 110/125 for LHCS? I've only ever seen 125 stencilled on the data panels or listed in carriage working books.
Data panels is what I'm talking about; now that I've had time to dig up my photographic records I can tell you that I've seen the following speeds on data panels:
Mark 3 RFM, (Arriva Trains Wales): 125mph
Mark 3 DVT, (Greater Anglia): 125mph
Mark 3, (Greater Anglia): 110mph
I'm guessing if a maximum speed is given on the data panel then the vehicle in question is authorised to run at that speed if the linespeed allows and all other vehicles in the train are also cleared for at least that speed. I've zero evidence to suggest that a mark 3 DVT has ever run on a service train above 110mph though.
I always understood that it was due to a ban on 100mph+ CO-CO locos due to the alleged track damage due to bogie hunting.. BR infrastructure teams believed the CO-CO bogies osscilated both vertically and laterally around the central axle, causing track hammer blows
I had a look myself - Virgin, BR, Greater Anglia, ONE, NXEA, Chiltern, Caledonian Sleeper and W&S Mk3s of day and sleeper Mk3a and b are all marked 125mph. The DVTs vary, Virgin, ONE, GA & NXEA are all 125, but ATW, Chiltern and W&S are 110; I wonder what the reason for that is.
Certainly most BR electrics were Bo-Bo and I think the earlier Co-Co types were all 90 max or slower, so track damage could be another reason behind no more 89s.
Also - the 91s have body mounted traction motors, what do the 89s have? If it's axle-mounted perhaps the forces imposed on the track at 125mph by the bogies was another factor?
One common factor between ATW, Chiltern and Wrexham & Shropshire is their DVTs are all numbered 823xx having had ARR multiple working fitted for use with class 67s. Not saying that's the reason (and I've been told on here that they retain TDM for use with electric locos, though whether that's correct I can't be sure), but it's a possibility. I wonder if 82146 (the EWS/DB management train DVT and, as far as I know, the only ARR-fitted DVT which doesn't have an 823xx number) is any different?
No idea in that respect, other than the TOC it seems somewhat random.
Probably down to the bogies. The older BT10A bogies (bogie frame with a bolted-on fabricated lateral control rod spigot mounting, to get technical!) have generally been restricted to 110mph in recent years, so it has been ROSCO policy to fit them to the likes of the sleepers and Anglia stock. The later BT10B type (bogie frame with a welded-in cast lateral control rod spigot mounting) is fully 125mph cleared, so have been concentrated under the HST fleets for obvious reasons. I would also add that the data panels are not necessarily accurate.
And before anyone asks, no it isn't as simple as BT10A = Long Swing Link and BT10B = Short Swing Link. There are LSL BT10Bs for a start!
But Mk3 DVTs have T4 bogies though and that's the only vehicles which seem to differ between 110 and 125 all the Mk3 seated vehicles seem have 125 on the data panels that I've seen.
The Mk3s that took me from Diss to Liverpool Street and back on Thursday were all plated at 110mph. I suspected that was the case and remembered to look as I had this thread in mind.
Interesting, I've yet to see anything other than DVTs and some sleepers as anything other than 110.
I suspect the 125/110 mph difference on a DVT might be to do with whatever sticker is available!
I travelled a bit on the 90/DVT sets when the worked the North Berwick branch and the stickers inside the guards office all said "Max speed 125 mph".
There is a video of a Mk3 DVT doing 125 mph tests on the ECML on YouTube somewhere.
What did they test the 89 at 125 with -presumably Mk3 stock?
Found the videos of the DVT test. s
HST PC,DVT,test car,RFM,2x sleepers all being shoved by a 91!
This same user has tons of videos posted of the 89 working in BR days.
I am sure they used HST stock with one of the surrogate HST DVTs for 125mph testing on the ECML. The TGS next to the loco was fitted with loco-hauled style drawgear. (Buffers, drop buckeye etc). I think the International stock would have been used on the WCML if any 125mph running was done there.
I love that lash-up!
I know they ran back-to-back power cars north of Newcastle to test the Mk4s on the then not fully unelectrified line to Edinburgh.
HST Mk3 stock for the 89?
Mk4 did not exist at the time. 89001 and 87101 went to HE. More to to with training drivers on modern 87/1, 89,90 & 91.
I appreciate that, I just wondered whether they make up a test rake out of various vehicles or used Mk3s.