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Claustrophobic trains and passenger welfare

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boxy321

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Each coach should have a redundant system. Also, if the cooling has failed a fresh air option should be in place. My Volvo was regassed but the compressor had failed. However, the climate control blew air in at full blast which did the job mostly. I know there are issues with exhaust fumes (172) and toilet smells (390, 220) but it can be done.
 
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boxy321

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I was on Chiltern Business Zone on Thursday and there was no A/C. At 8am it was heating up nicely as we stood at Small Heath with bust signals. By half way to London I'd be looking for an escape route so thankly got off at Solihull half an hour late. The 153's are OK in heat as long as they're moving. Hot but not claustrophobic with the engine noise and fresh air.
 

LowLevel

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Thank you - this is a helpful reply.

The key point is not necessarily - it appears that there is a temptation to open 158 / 166 windows too early in some cases - e.g. not when it is actually dead.

Class 158 is one thing - I had one earlier that was stunning but most are middling to awful - class 166 is quite another and is well known for being dreadful throughout. Not helped, apparently, by the fact that whenever the throttle is wide open to full power the AC is isolated as the units are considered to be underpowered with it on :oops:
 

tiptoptaff

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class 166....Not helped, apparently, by the fact that whenever the throttle is wide open to full power the AC is isolated as the units are considered to be underpowered with it on :oops:
Not true of the GWR ones, the mod was disconnected as it meant that in suburban use in the Thames Valley, the AC was always off
 

Flying Snail

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Each coach should have a redundant system. Also, if the cooling has failed a fresh air option should be in place. My Volvo was regassed but the compressor had failed. However, the climate control blew air in at full blast which did the job mostly. I know there are issues with exhaust fumes (172) and toilet smells (390, 220) but it can be done.

Some modern stock has 2 AC units per coach, one for each half, if one fails that end will be warmer but still a lot better than no AC.

Usually when the AC fails it is the cooling part not the fans so air is still being pumped in to the coaches, when this happens the air is being pushed through the failed AC unit which runs hot without refrigerant and through ducts in the roof of the carriages which get baked by the sun. By the time this air gets to the cabin it is several degrees warmer than ambient outside air.

I was on Chiltern Business Zone on Thursday and there was no A/C. At 8am it was heating up nicely as we stood at Small Heath with bust signals. By half way to London I'd be looking for an escape route so thankly got off at Solihull half an hour late. The 153's are OK in heat as long as they're moving. Hot but not claustrophobic with the engine noise and fresh air.

In this case the escape route is the gangway that leads to the other carriages which should not all be defective. I can never understand people who sit and bake in a hot carriage when there are others to use, unless the train is packed or you are in a wheelchair and cannot change coaches then move. I have on occasion switched from 1st to standard due to the 1st class coach being too hot. In these conditions a bigger seat and freebees is far less important than a cool environment.
 

stj

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Spent time in Italy last month, all the trains I went on the AC worked which should be the case here.MK2/3 AC stock never had opening windows in the old days.Opening windows is just a cop out for poor maintenance/operation.
 

gaillark

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Part of me even wonders if it would be worthwhile going as far as having lockable drop-lights on door windows. Having a proper opening window for use on trains that are stationary for long period would be helpful from a passenger comfort perspective but there's also a use in that it means that guards would be able to observe their train out of the platform properly (which brings an operational safety advantage).

Agree 100%.
 

DarloRich

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We seem to have a lot of solutions looking for problems here. Surely the answer is a timely evacuation of stranded trains, especially when the temperature is very high or low.

The problem is that there isn't a train rescue squad sat waiting at every station
 

Jozhua

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For everyone concerned that opening the windows can break the AC by "overworking" it, it really shouldn't. Most temperature control systems, be that heating or cooling are controlled in a binary fashion by the thermostat. Instead of running at a certain percentage, it simply cycles on when it is too warm and cycles off when it is a degree or so lower than set. So instead of running at 50% say, it runs for 5 minutes in a 10 minute time-frame.

Generally with air con units, the fans always run and the compressors cycle on and off when necessary, so yes it is likely that the compressor will be running 100% of the time if the windows are open, but frankly if it can't cope with that then it doesn't say much about the reliability of the system...
 

Flying Snail

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Spent time in Italy last month, all the trains I went on the AC worked which should be the case here.MK2/3 AC stock never had opening windows in the old days.Opening windows is just a cop out for poor maintenance/operation.

As long as it is treated as an extra rather than an essential component then failed AC will be a continuous problem. There are hundreds of systems and components on trains that fail regularly, most are treated as being required to be present and functional before the unit is allowed leave the depot, if AC was treated the same as brakes or headlights or windscreen wipers then failed AC in service would be very rare.

If the expectation was that guards and drivers would refuse to operate stock without functional AC then the entire maintenance regime and attitude to AC would have to change from the current fix it when we can one to one where it is just another essential requirement for stock to be allowed enter service every day.
 

43096

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As long as it is treated as an extra rather than an essential component then failed AC will be a continuous problem. There are hundreds of systems and components on trains that fail regularly, most are treated as being required to be present and functional before the unit is allowed leave the depot, if AC was treated the same as brakes or headlights or windscreen wipers then failed AC in service would be very rare.

If the expectation was that guards and drivers would refuse to operate stock without functional AC then the entire maintenance regime and attitude to AC would have to change from the current fix it when we can one to one where it is just another essential requirement for stock to be allowed enter service every day.
Truth.

How many depots have specialist HVAC engineers on their teams? I believe Salisbury did under SWT, which probably explains why aircon on the 159s was working more often than the 158 fleets elsewhere.
 

yorksrob

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We seem to have a lot of solutions looking for problems here. Surely the answer is a timely evacuation of stranded trains, especially when the temperature is very high or low.

The problem is that there isn't a train rescue squad sat waiting at every station

That's quite a disruptive procedure for an aircon break. Being able to run with a few windows open seems a lot less troublesome, operationally.
 

Skie

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There is no perfect solution. Trains without A/C but opening windows are still unbearably hot when the outside temperatures outside get high, and whilst the breeze does go some way to help it's still a long metal tube building heat in the sun. Getting on a Merseyrail train at 11pm and it was still a sauna, despite the sun having been down for a few hours and every window open as much as the stupid refurb chocks allow.

Ideally if A/C fails then the unit would have the ability to suck in as much outside air as possible (it does this to a certain extent anyway during normal operation) and blow it out as hard as possible. Keep the systems as electrically and mechanically isolated as possible and it might help in situations like this.
 

DarloRich

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Stranded trains must be a relatively small proportion of aircon incidents though.

Agreed but most air conditioning failures are an inconvenience rather than a safety risk.

OBVIOUSLY when temperatures are like yesterday it becomes a big issue but most other days........
 
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yorksrob

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Agreed but most air conditioning failures are an inconvenience rather than a safety risk.

OBVIOUSLY when temperatures are like yesterday it becomes a big issue but most other days........

Indeed. No one wants to see unnecessary cancellations - which is why having a few windows that the guard can open seems like an entirely proportionate response.
 
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Ethano92

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As long as it is treated as an extra rather than an essential component then failed AC will be a continuous problem. There are hundreds of systems and components on trains that fail regularly, most are treated as being required to be present and functional before the unit is allowed leave the depot, if AC was treated the same as brakes or headlights or windscreen wipers then failed AC in service would be very rare.

If the expectation was that guards and drivers would refuse to operate stock without functional AC then the entire maintenance regime and attitude to AC would have to change from the current fix it when we can one to one where it is just another essential requirement for stock to be allowed enter service every day.

I'm sure people will see this as extreme but could AC have been included in PRM mods? I think it's crazy passengers should have to endure such temperatures just because AC is seen as an extra. Is there any chance of the DfT intervening in TOCs repeatedly sending out units with faulty AC, potentially not as they'd be targeting almost every single one. Why should a Universal access toilet determine whether a train is allowed to run in service but not the thing stopping a crush loaded train reaching 30+°C. Not saying the former is not important or that those with mobility issues shouldn't be able to use an onboard toilet when everyone else can, I just don't see how these aren't both seen as important as each other.

Edit: perhaps not regulate to have AC on trains which currently don't, but at least trains fitted with it and hence no or very few openable windows should have AC fully working or taken out of service at the end of its diagram.
 
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mmh

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I wonder how frequent air con failure is. It's clearly not going to work if the train has no power. It's also far more likely to break while being used, so will break more often on a train in service than parked up for the night.

I think I've experienced more air con / refrigeration failures in office buildings and shops than I have on trains. I've worked in offices with continually breaking systems, and yesterday my local Sainsbury's had no chilled goods at all, all of their chiller units had failed.
 

Antman

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Do the undercarrriages have room for gensets (not opening up whether they should be powered by ford pickup engines....,) or battery storage ? Provide hotel power if main power out ? Or is it yet another problem with our loading gauge? What about a degree of solar power on the roof panels...?
 

py_megapixel

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Could the climate control system be configured to automatically open the doors a few inches if the AC fails (i.e. if it is running it and not detecting lower temperatures)? This would probably work only on stock with sliding doors, as plug doors take up additional width when open. I personally feel a lot less claustrophobic with an open door than an open window, because it stretches from floor to ceiling and could be an escape route if needed. The main problem is that most units in service today likely have no connection between the AC and the door controllers.
 

muz379

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Thank you - this is a helpful reply.

The key point is not necessarily - it appears that there is a temptation to open 158 / 166 windows too early in some cases - e.g. not when it is actually dead.
I think most traincrew that sign them know on the 158 that windows should only open either when the air con goes into vent mode in which case its essentially just pumping in outside air , or if the system is isolated and so not running at all .Another problem with my experience of 158's is there is more than one type of Air conditioning unit fitted to the units .

Each coach should have a redundant system. Also, if the cooling has failed a fresh air option should be in place. My Volvo was regassed but the compressor had failed. However, the climate control blew air in at full blast which did the job mostly. I know there are issues with exhaust fumes (172) and toilet smells (390, 220) but it can be done.
This is what the system on 158's can be set to do or does itself if it detects any number of issues .

However I think some of the unbearable temperatures on board trains yesterday came in the form of electric units which had to lower pantographs because of overhead issues , if there is no power to run the ACU then there wouldnt be any power to run fans to vent outside air into the carriages either .

Edit: perhaps not regulate to have AC on trains which currently don't, but at least trains fitted with it and hence no or very few openable windows should have AC fully working or taken out of service at the end of its diagram.
And what if it cannot be fixed overnight because of shortage of parts or available appropriately skilled fitters ? Than that is one unit down for the following day , contributing to overcrowding the next day .

Not all trains spend their overnight period stabled at a maintenance depot with fitters on hand .
 

Ethano92

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And what if it cannot be fixed overnight because of shortage of parts or available appropriately skilled fitters ? Than that is one unit down for the following day , contributing to overcrowding the next day .

Not all trains spend their overnight period stabled at a maintenance depot with fitters on hand .

Is this not exactly what's happening if say a universal toilet needed fixing, or another PRM requirement was faulty? Why is AC seen as an extra even on days such as Thursday.
 

mmh

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Is this not exactly what's happening if say a universal toilet needed fixing, or another PRM requirement was faulty? Why is AC seen as an extra even on days such as Thursday.

Which trains went into service on Thursday without working AC? (Other than the thousands which just don't have it, of course)
 

Mainliner

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I personally feel that the lack of emergency ventilation (crew controlled) is a serious oversight on many units and vehicles.

If someone were to die as a result of heat exhaustion due to no air conditioning, the TOC could well find itself in court.

Indeed - reading reports like the one below, one wonders whether the risk assessment of not having any available ventilation in an emergency needs to be revisited.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ped-boiling-alive-train-hottest-day-year.html
 

alangla

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The main problem, as I see it, with 158 aircon is that the units sit either in stations or sidings in the sun with the engines stopped. Naturally they heat up. Unit is started and, inevitably, air conditioning can’t work miracles, so it’s still warm. Guard then starts opening the windows and the game’s up. There’s plenty of times I’ve been on Liebherr fitted ScotRail 158s with the AC unit showing all green lights but the windows open. What’s the solution? No idea, the guards are probably trained but still get it wrong.

On the question of removing windows without breaking them, some stock in the US has a large red handle attached to the window rubber that can remove the window, I assume that’s what’s being thought of. Vandals here would absolutely love something like that. Less extreme, some road coaches in the US appear to have something where you can lift the window sill then the window hinges from the top as an escape route
 

muz379

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Is this not exactly what's happening if say a universal toilet needed fixing, or another PRM requirement was faulty? Why is AC seen as an extra even on days such as Thursday.
A toilet and even the door mechanism will seldom be as complicated as an AC unit . And a faulty toilet can fairly often be fixed by an outstation fitter whilst the train is in service meaning less of them end up at the depot broken .
 

Bantamzen

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Spent time in Italy last month, all the trains I went on the AC worked which should be the case here.MK2/3 AC stock never had opening windows in the old days.Opening windows is just a cop out for poor maintenance/operation.

It should be the case here, although I'm sure European trains have similar problems because sometimes mechanical systems simply fail. Short of an airline-like maintenance regime to ensure the A/C never falls over, you are never going to be able to guarantee 100% reliability.

In the particular case were a unit is stopped with no power, evacuation should be the priority as soon as possible, although if the failure is due to OHLE fails then this will prove problematic and will take longer. A simple interim solution would be to release the doors and at least let some air through, with a polite message to passengers not to de-train themselves. Sadly in at least this country it's almost guaranteed that people would ignore that and hence this doesn't happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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In the particular case were a unit is stopped with no power, evacuation should be the priority as soon as possible, although if the failure is due to OHLE fails then this will prove problematic and will take longer. A simple interim solution would be to release the doors and at least let some air through, with a polite message to passengers not to de-train themselves. Sadly in at least this country it's almost guaranteed that people would ignore that and hence this doesn't happen.

At least some trains in the UK carry emergency door barriers to allow for exactly this. Mk4s do, for one.
 
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