Cleethorpes my ideas to improve services

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’ve come up with this timetable:

05:26: Sheffield via Doncaster
06:05: Leicester via Lincoln
06:15: Newark Northgate via Lincoln
06:26: Sheffield via Doncaster
06:55: Barton-on-Humber
07:05: Leicester via Lincoln
07:17: Sheffield via Brigg
07:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
07:46: London Kings Cross via Lincoln
07:55: Barton-on-Humber
08:05: Leicester via Lincoln
08:17: Sheffield via Brigg
08:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
08:55: Barton-on-Humber
09:05: Leicester via Lincoln
09:17: Sheffield via Brigg
09:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
09:55: Barton-on-Humber
10:05: Leicester via Lincoln
10:17: Sheffield via Brigg
10:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
10:55: Barton-on-Humber
11:05: Leicester via Lincoln
11:17: Sheffield via Brigg
11:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
11:55: Barton-on-Humber
12:05: Leicester via Lincoln
12:17: Sheffield via Brigg
12:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
12:55: Barton-on-Humber
13:05: Leicester via Lincoln
13:17: Sheffield via Brigg
13:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
13:46: London Kings Cross via Lincoln
13:55: Barton-on-Humber
14:05: Leicester via Lincoln
14:17: Sheffield via Brigg
14:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
14:55: Barton-on-Humber
15:05: Leicester via Lincoln
15:17: Sheffield via Brigg
15:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
15:55: Barton-on-Humber
16:05: Leicester via Lincoln
16:17: Sheffield via Brigg
16:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
16:55: Barton-on-Humber
17:05: Leicester via Lincoln
17:17: Sheffield via Brigg
17:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
17:55: Barton-on-Humber
18:05: Leicester via Lincoln
18:17: Sheffield via Brigg
18:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
18:55: Barton-on-Humber
19:05: Leicester via Lincoln
19:17: Sheffield via Brigg
19:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
19:46: London Kings Cross via Lincoln
19:55: Barton-on-Humber
20:05: Leicester via Lincoln
20:17: Sheffield via Brigg
20:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
20:55: Barton-on-Humber
21:26: Sheffield via Doncaster
21:55: Barton-on-Humber
22:26: Sheffield via Doncaster


This would involve at least an extra platform an double track between Grimsby and Cleethorpes

Barton service becomes hourly
Leicester services (via Lincoln) extended to Cleethorpes
London services
Sheffield To Gainsborough service extended to Cleethorpes

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’ve come up with this timetable:

05:26: Sheffield via Doncaster
06:05: Leicester via Lincoln
06:15: Newark Northgate via Lincoln
06:26: Sheffield via Doncaster
06:55: Barton-on-Humber
07:05: Leicester via Lincoln
07:17: Sheffield via Brigg
07:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
07:46: London Kings Cross via Lincoln
07:55: Barton-on-Humber
08:05: Leicester via Lincoln
08:17: Sheffield via Brigg
08:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
08:55: Barton-on-Humber
09:05: Leicester via Lincoln
09:17: Sheffield via Brigg
09:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
09:55: Barton-on-Humber
10:05: Leicester via Lincoln
10:17: Sheffield via Brigg
10:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
10:55: Barton-on-Humber
11:05: Leicester via Lincoln
11:17: Sheffield via Brigg
11:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
11:55: Barton-on-Humber
12:05: Leicester via Lincoln
12:17: Sheffield via Brigg
12:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
12:55: Barton-on-Humber
13:05: Leicester via Lincoln
13:17: Sheffield via Brigg
13:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
13:46: London Kings Cross via Lincoln
13:55: Barton-on-Humber
14:05: Leicester via Lincoln
14:17: Sheffield via Brigg
14:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
14:55: Barton-on-Humber
15:05: Leicester via Lincoln
15:17: Sheffield via Brigg
15:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
15:55: Barton-on-Humber
16:05: Leicester via Lincoln
16:17: Sheffield via Brigg
16:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
16:55: Barton-on-Humber
17:05: Leicester via Lincoln
17:17: Sheffield via Brigg
17:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
17:55: Barton-on-Humber
18:05: Leicester via Lincoln
18:17: Sheffield via Brigg
18:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
18:55: Barton-on-Humber
19:05: Leicester via Lincoln
19:17: Sheffield via Brigg
19:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
19:46: London Kings Cross via Lincoln
19:55: Barton-on-Humber
20:05: Leicester via Lincoln
20:17: Sheffield via Brigg
20:26: Manchester Airport via Doncaster
20:55: Barton-on-Humber
21:26: Sheffield via Doncaster
21:55: Barton-on-Humber
22:26: Sheffield via Doncaster


This would involve at least an extra platform an double track between Grimsby and Cleethorpes

Barton service becomes hourly
Leicester services (via Lincoln) extended to Cleethorpes
London services
Sheffield To Gainsborough service extended to Cleethorpes

All sounds very expensive!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

All sounds very expensive!

Really it isn’t Double tracking is the most expensive. The service extension to Cleethorpes could be done right after and one platform is already connected. The other line from Gainsborough is already there!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Really it isn’t Double tracking is the most expensive. The service extension to Cleethorpes could be done right after and one platform is already connected. The other line from Gainsborough is already there!

So all those extra services, including a brand new hourly service by Brig come for free? Barton for example is currently very heavily subsidised for a 2-hourly service which isn’t very well used.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So all those extra services, including a brand new hourly service by Brig come for free? Barton for example is currently very heavily subsidised for a 2-hourly service which isn’t very well used.

Ok good point. Maybe the Barton line could stay 2-hourly

 

[HST43257]

Maybe the Barton line could stay 2-hourly

Having 1 unit going up and down is probably cheapest and simplest.

Another option could be an hourly train from Barton to Habrough instead, reducing connectivity in northern parts of Lincolnshire (by not going to Grimsby and Cleethorpes) but potentially increasing connectivity with the wider area and country, with double the connecting services for that line.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why on earth is the first tranche of TransPennine stuff only to Sheffield?

Why is there a service to Kings Cross? It isn't going to happen.

Barton should only be two-hourly. It's hardly workable otherwise and the demand doesn't exist.

Sheffield via Brigg barely warrants two services a day each way, perhaps to cater for a limited section of school traffic.

Services via Market Rasen need only be two-hourly, possibly at best hourly and starting back from Grimsby. Definitely don't need to go all the way to Leicester, especially as it's a performance killer.

Anyway, it's basically no good. Nice idea but it's not going to go.

 

[HST43257]

Why is there a service to Kings Cross? It isn't going to happen.

An LNER Lincoln terminator set could get to and turn around sensibly at Barnetby with no extra trains used so you could have this. However you can only get the full benefit with 1 extra set and cleethorpes extensions.

 

[Grimsby town]

Why on earth is the first tranche of TransPennine stuff only to Sheffield?

Why is there a service to Kings Cross? It isn't going to happen.

Barton should only be two-hourly. It's hardly workable otherwise and the demand doesn't exist.

Sheffield via Brigg barely warrants two services a day each way, perhaps to cater for a limited section of school traffic.

Services via Market Rasen need only be two-hourly, possibly at best hourly and starting back from Grimsby. Definitely don't need to go all the way to Leicester, especially as it's a performance killer.

Anyway, it's basically no good. Nice idea but it's not going to go.

An hourly service to Leicester from Grimsby is due to be introduced in a year so obviously somebody disagrees with you there. Extending that to Cleethorpes would definitely worth doing but at the moment the capacity isn't there.

I think a London service will happen albeit once a day. The MPs in the area have made it a significant commitment and with the tories trying to hold Grimsby I think that would be a relatively cheap sop to the locals.

The Barton line one is a complicated one. There's definitely potential demand from Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates but the rest of the line seems to be performing poorly. The service has been unreliable for years now with TPE regular being understaffed. I think concentrating on running a reliable 2 hourly service is the top priority. I'd also stop some of the Lincoln services at Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates to increase their services.

The brigg line does deserve some sort of a service as patronage has been relatively decent on the Saturday services over the last couple of years. One unit running a round service to Worksop providing around 4 trains per day would be a sensible starting point. Obviously this all based on demand recovering after Covid-19 as subsided.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

An LNER Lincoln terminator set could get to and turn around sensibly at Barnetby with no extra trains used so you could have this. However you can only get the full benefit with 1 extra set and cleethorpes extensions.

The smartest* choice is to use the existing 07:30 out of Lincoln which is ECS from Donny Carr, but that only gives an 09:27 arrival at Kings Cross. You're looking at an 06:20 or so departure ahead of the 06:26 Manchester from Cleethorpes, as you then don't have any single line issues.

On the reverse, the only possible train to extend is the 19:06 Kings Cross, unless you use the 16:06. To use the 16:06 you have to do 2 x 800, allowing the back working from Lincoln to Kings Cross to be a 5/800.

But yeah, it's the 19:06. Hardly a great departure time, and better with a solid connection at North Gate. At least you get something better than a last train from Lincoln to South Humberside than 20:02, and probably a 22:10 arrival in Cleethorpes. Not nice for your average business person.

*Not necessarily smart but, there we go.

 

[Whistler40145]

I very much doubt there's sufficient passenger numbers to operate a Cleethorpes to London Kings Cross service

 

[JonathanH]

I'd also stop some of the Lincoln services at Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates to increase their services.

The brigg line does deserve some sort of a service as patronage has been relatively decent on the Saturday services over the last couple of years. One unit running a round service to Worksop providing around 4 trains per day would be a sensible starting point. Obviously this all based on demand recovering after Covid-19 as subsided.

Would it not make more sense for any new Brigg services to pick up the additional stops between Barnetby and Grimsby rather than the Lincoln services. Slowing down the connection to Lincoln has implications for people travelling further afield.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

An hourly service to Leicester from Grimsby is due to be introduced in a year so obviously somebody disagrees with you there. Extending that to Cleethorpes would definitely worth doing but at the moment the capacity isn't there.

I think a London service will happen albeit once a day. The MPs in the area have made it a significant commitment and with the tories trying to hold Grimsby I think that would be a relatively cheap sop to the locals.

The Barton line one is a complicated one. There's definitely potential demand from Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates but the rest of the line seems to be performing poorly. The service has been unreliable for years now with TPE regular being understaffed. I think concentrating on running a reliable 2 hourly service is the top priority. I'd also stop some of the Lincoln services at Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates to increase their services.

The brigg line does deserve some sort of a service as patronage has been relatively decent on the Saturday services over the last couple of years. One unit running a round service to Worksop providing around 4 trains per day would be a sensible starting point. Obviously this all based on demand recovering after Covid-19 as subsided.

On the flip side, you could just use said hourly service to be all stops Barnetby - Grimsby; thus causing the Barton to be non-stop Ulceby - Habrough - Grimsby. That way, it loses a few minutes and operates more reliably as a two-hourly service.

 

[JonathanH]

I very much doubt there's sufficient passenger numbers to operate a Cleethorpes to London Kings Cross service

What justified the running of the HST there until 1993 (recognising that it was a generation ago now)? Was it just the loadings from Lincoln and that Cleethorpes had the facilities to do light servicing overnight?

 

[PTR 444]

Here's a taktplan timetable I have produced for the North Lincolnshire line. It includes most of the suggestions in Jorge's original post but with the notable exception of the Barton line only running as a shuttle to Habrough, albeit increased to hourly using one unit with 3-4 minute layovers at either end. I have retimed it so it can connect with a new extension of the Doncaster - Scunthorpe stopper, picking up all of the stops east of Habrough to Cleethorpes.

Summary of service pattern:

• 1tph Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly (TPE)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Leicester (EMR)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Sheffield via Brigg (Northern)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Doncaster (Northern)
• 1tph Habrough - Barton-on-Humber

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Here's a taktplan timetable I have produced for the North Lincolnshire line. It includes most of the suggestions in Jorge's original post but with the notable exception of the Barton line only running as a shuttle to Habrough, albeit increased to hourly using one unit with 3-4 minute layovers at either end. I have retimed it so it can connect with a new extension of the Doncaster - Scunthorpe stopper, picking up all of the stops east of Habrough to Cleethorpes.

Summary of service pattern:

• 1tph Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly (TPE)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Leicester (EMR)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Sheffield via Brigg (Northern)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Doncaster (Northern)
• 1tph Habrough - Barton-on-Humber

Wow! Well thought out. Impressive for sure.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Here's a taktplan timetable I have produced for the North Lincolnshire line. It includes most of the suggestions in Jorge's original post but with the notable exception of the Barton line only running as a shuttle to Habrough, albeit increased to hourly using one unit with 3-4 minute layovers at either end. I have retimed it so it can connect with a new extension of the Doncaster - Scunthorpe stopper, picking up all of the stops east of Habrough to Cleethorpes.

Summary of service pattern:

• 1tph Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly (TPE)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Leicester (EMR)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Sheffield via Brigg (Northern)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Doncaster (Northern)
• 1tph Habrough - Barton-on-Humber

Sounds like a nice idea but the very notion of stopping the Barton at Habrough and not running through to the main market at Grimsby is ludicrous; and the idea that you need an hourly service via Brigg equally so.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Sounds like a nice idea but the very notion of stopping the Barton at Habrough and not running through to the main market at Grimsby is ludicrous; and the idea that you need an hourly service via Brigg equally so.

North Lincolnshire council disagree with both of those statements with a plan to run services on both lines hourly and the Barton line would not run to Grimsby as part of a submission to Restoring Your Railway Fund

 

[4-SUB 4732]

North Lincolnshire council disagree with both of those statements with a plan to run services on both lines hourly and the Barton line would not run to Grimsby as part of a submission to Restoring Your Railway Fund

Impossible to reverse at Habrough without major money spent; and restoring your railway is total waffle of the highest order...

 

[PTR 444]

Impossible to reverse at Habrough without major money spent; and restoring your railway is total waffle of the highest order...

Don’t forget the western chord at Ulceby, currently only used by freight

 

[tbtc]

Here's a taktplan timetable I have produced for the North Lincolnshire line. It includes most of the suggestions in Jorge's original post but with the notable exception of the Barton line only running as a shuttle to Habrough, albeit increased to hourly using one unit with 3-4 minute layovers at either end. I have retimed it so it can connect with a new extension of the Doncaster - Scunthorpe stopper, picking up all of the stops east of Habrough to Cleethorpes.

Summary of service pattern:

• 1tph Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly (TPE)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Leicester (EMR)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Sheffield via Brigg (Northern)
• 1tph Cleethorpes - Doncaster (Northern)
• 1tph Habrough - Barton-on-Humber

Amongst all of the blue sky thinking on this thread about hourly Brigg services and direct London trains, I'm delighted to see someone suggest something as practical/ everyday as doubling the service from the Grimsby area to Scunthorpe and Doncaster (by extending the Northern stopper from Doncaster beyond Scunthorpe) - that's the kind of simple improvement that could be arranged at relatively short notice (rather than trying to pair up long distance paths or find new 125mph trains) - all you need is an extra 150 or two and a handful of staff.

Grimsby to Scunthorpe/ Doncaster should be a priority IMHO - the kind of simple link that people would use on a regular basis, rather than the vanity of the "putting our town on the map" link to London. Plus, for those who do travel further afield, Doncaster isn't a bad place for long distance connections (LNER, XC etc)

North Lincolnshire council disagree with both of those statements with a plan to run services on both lines hourly

Well, of course the local councillors are going to demand that there's a much increased heavy rail service (in every part of the UK) - local councillors aren't the ones having to subsidise such grand increases