Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[trebor79]

The problem I have with mask wearing is that they encourage face touching. Many people are constantly touching their face to reposition the mask, contamination that’s on their hands is transferred to their mask and face and vice versa on to surfaces. I tend to touch my face with my hands a lot, over the last couple of years I’ve trained myself to not do this on public transport. I’m reluctant to use a mask as I feel it’ll just involve touching my face more.

Then there’s removing the mask to use the phone, talk to someone, eat or drink. I think it’s reasonable for someone to wear a mask constantly for a 30 minute commute but for a 3 hour long distance journey? If the masks are “mandated” does that suggest removing them will result in a fine? We already have the rise of the corona vigilante, you can imagine aggressive confrontations between mask wearers and non mask wearers or people getting angry because someone has removed their mask... I can also see problems with defining what constitutes a face covering or mask.

According to the BBC, although Germany has mandated mask use on public transport, this does not include long distance trains. I guess both from a practicality/comfort point of view and also that people tend not to be crammed in like sardines on longer distance trains.

The problem i have with mask wearing is that I think it’s all show and little to no evidence, and I think it’s a horrible thing for society to shut ourselves away behind masks.
We already can’t shake hands, now the zealots want to stop us smiling at each other.

Agree with this.

The WHO states that by far the greatest number of CoV2 infections occur in the home. Generally from prolonged exposure to someone who is sick and showing symptoms. People mostly aren’t catching it in the street, at the shops or at school, they are catching it from prolonged exposure at home. In that case all those people walking the streets of Beijing and Seoul wearing masks, although they may feel righteous, are really contributing very little.

Hmm, but a lot of stuff pumped out by the WHO is iffy. If most transmission occurs in the home, then lockdowns wouldn't be an effective way of stopping the epidemic, which they demonstrably are (albeit they can only be temporary measure).
The WHO also recommended against closing borders on the basis that "the virus doesn't respect borders". Well, no it wont, if you allow infected people to flow over them. New Zealand both locked down and closed their border very early in their epidemic and have almost succeeded in eradicating the infection.

I think ordering people to wear masks by law is a serious issue and enforcement would be difficult and cause problems. I don’t think the positives are worth the negatives and scientific evidence for the benefits (if there are any) of asymptomatic people wearing home made masks is very limited. Id be very surprised if it went further than “recommended” here, but even that could cause problems with people being refused access to public buildings and services. if mask wearing is mandated then what happens when someone chooses to remove it, to eat or drink, wipe their nose because they have hay fever, to answer the phone, just because it’s uncomfortable? Are they to be ejected from the train, bus, supermarket?

At some point very soon we’ll be looking to convince people it’s safe to go out and get back to some sort of normality. Mandating masks at this point is a strange way of doing that.

Agree. I think I'd be continually "forgetting" to put it on in the hope/expectation that I wouldn't be challenged. Or I'd wear it as loosely as possible. I just don't believe it has any measurable positive effect, and therefore believe it to be a completely pointless measure and worthy of paying lip service to at best.

 

[Mogster]

According to the BBC, although Germany has mandated mask use on public transport, this does not include long distance trains. I guess both from a practicality/comfort point of view and also that people tend not to be crammed in like sardines on longer distance trains.

Agree with this.

Hmm, but a lot of stuff pumped out by the WHO is iffy. If most transmission occurs in the home, then lockdowns wouldn't be an effective way of stopping the epidemic, which they demonstrably are (albeit they can only be temporary measure).
The WHO also recommended against closing borders on the basis that "the virus doesn't respect borders". Well, no it wont, if you allow infected people to flow over them. New Zealand both locked down and closed their border very early in their epidemic and have almost succeeded in eradicating the infection.

Agree. I think I'd be continually "forgetting" to put it on in the hope/expectation that I wouldn't be challenged. Or I'd wear it as loosely as possible. I just don't believe it has any measurable positive effect, and therefore believe it to be a completely pointless measure and worthy of paying lip service to at best.

Aye, agree about the WHO, they’ve been pretty flaky though this whole thing. In this case their recommendations were based on early test and track data from China, S Korea and the USA iirc.

Italy and the USA closed their borders early and it didnt seem to do them much good. I do think the situation in London and NewYork is more to do with population density and them being international hubs. A high BAME population who seem to be more susceptible for unknown reasons probably isn’t helping either. New Zealand has a very low population density, a low BAME (African) population and could hardly be described as an international hub. 99% of cases have remained above the tropic of cancer for whatever reason.

 

[MarkyT]

According to the BBC, although Germany has mandated mask use on public transport, this does not include long distance trains. I guess both from a practicality/comfort point of view and also that people tend not to be crammed in like sardines on longer distance trains.

Sensible proportionality perhaps. In Germany there is usually a range of different train categories on most routes so the exemption might be combined with enforced extra-spaced reservation on maskless ICs, although I can't see how that could work in the London peak on GWR for instance, or where the IC train forms the backbone of local service at extremities of networks for instance.

If most transmission occurs in the home, then lockdowns wouldn't be an effective way of stopping the epidemic, which they demonstrably are (albeit they can only be temporary measure).

The transmission can only occur if there is a resident bringing the virus in from outside, an essential worker for instance. It can't get in on its own.

Agree. I think I'd be continually "forgetting" to put it on in the hope/expectation that I wouldn't be challenged. Or I'd wear it as loosely as possible. I just don't believe it has any measurable positive effect, and therefore believe it to be a completely pointless measure and worthy of paying lip service to at best.

As I said before think of it as a pre-fitted handkerchief. Don't wear it where it's very quiet and you're not likely to be challenged. That's fine really as there's little risk to others in that scenario clearly, but do slip it on when it gets busier and above all on local public transport which is thought to have been a major vector in NYC for instance and probably has been in London and other major cities too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Hmm, but a lot of stuff pumped out by the WHO is iffy. If most transmission occurs in the home, then lockdowns wouldn't be an effective way of stopping the epidemic, which they demonstrably are (albeit they can only be temporary measure).

Did they say most transmission occurs at home? On a quick check of their website, I can't see anything like that. Of course the science is constantly evolving. What would have been good advice, based on what was known 2 months ago, might well not be good advice based on what is known today.

Realistically, if you are infected but don't yet realise it, people you live with are going to be the people at highest risk of you passing it on to them. But that has to be set against, there aren't many of them. You probably only have one partner - whom you are almost certain to pass it to, and then 20 co-workers, any of whom you have a moderate chance of passing it to. Once you've passed the virus to the one or two people you've lived with, then there is (obviously) no more possibility of your transmitting it at home, even though initially that was the highest risk.

 

[Meerkat]

then lockdowns wouldn't be an effective way of stopping the epidemic, which they demonstrably are

Has that actually been proven? It seems logical but If the UK deaths peak was on the 8th April then the four week infection to death period would put the infection peak before our lockdown.

above all on local public transport which is thought to have been a major vector in NYC for instance and probably has been in London and other major cities too.

Thought to be....and that could have been before all symptomatic people were told to stay at home and we all started washing our hands and not touching our faces.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Over the last 48 hours, the supermarket I work at has put up posters with guidelines on the wearing of masks. The interesting element for me is the statement of only wearing a mask for a maximum of four hours before changing for a new/clean one. If these guidelines would mirror those given to the general public regarding use of masks, I do wonder how many people will have multiple masks on them while outside to allow them to change every four hours. Granted, during the early days of the relaxation of lockdown, most people shouldn't be out for four hours, but as time progresses and further relaxation of the lockdown occurs, it will become something more people do.

They're available to all Waitrose staff so if you have one near you might see the Partners wearing them.

Asda also offer these visors alongside conventional masks to colleagues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is for the "protect you" use of masks, not the "protect others" one.

As an aside it's interesting the strength of house style and design manuals, as I could tell which supermarket that was from without it even saying it on there.

 

[Mogster]

Did they say most transmission occurs at home? On a quick check of their website, I can't see anything like that. Of course the science is constantly evolving. What would have been good advice, based on what was known 2 months ago, might well not be good advice based on what is known today.

Realistically, if you are infected but don't yet realise it, people you live with are going to be the people at highest risk of you passing it on to them. But that has to be set against, there aren't many of them. You probably only have one partner - whom you are almost certain to pass it to, and then 20 co-workers, any of whom you have a moderate chance of passing it to. Once you've passed the virus to the one or two people you've lived with, then there is (obviously) no more possibility of your transmitting it at home, even though initially that was the highest risk.

I think what people remember is the WHO pulling stuff together early doors and referring to unpublished data in their briefings.

Late January/early February when no one knew what was going on they were referencing information fed back by their scientists sent to China. It basically said people were most likely to be infected in their homes, not in the wider community. Schools weren’t a significant source of infection, older people were most at risk. They also said asymptomatic infections were rare.

Most of this proved to be correct, I‘ve not seen anything that really contradicts those statements. I’m not sure anyone knows how infectious asymptomatic people are yet.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Just been issued mine

 

[7Paul7]

Over the last 48 hours, the supermarket I work at has put up posters with guidelines on the wearing of masks. The interesting element for me is the statement of only wearing a mask for a maximum of four hours before changing for a new/clean one. If these guidelines would mirror those given to the general public regarding use of masks, I do wonder how many people will have multiple masks on them while outside to allow them to change every four hours. Granted, during the early days of the relaxation of lockdown, most people shouldn't be out for four hours, but as time progresses and further relaxation of the lockdown occurs, it will become something more people do.

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Asda also offer these visors alongside conventional masks to colleagues.

With regards to the Poster the last two actions don't make sense.....wash hands ......remove mask.....dispose of GLOVES...wash hands,

Where did the gloves come from?

 

[Bantamzen]

Though it's a very popular move in other countries...we should at least ask ourselves why.

I've replied in here to keep on topic.

Wearing of various types of masks in other countries has proved popular with those governments, but again there is no real science behind it. It has long been protocol in countries like Japan to wear masks when displaying symptoms of a cold or flu, that is very much a cultural thing, and they may be some science behind that facet. But healthy people not displaying symptoms having to wear masks doesn't hold much water scientifically, and to be blunt other countries adopting these measures are simply bowing to some pressure I feel. Or maybe its a cynical measure to raise extra funds as they know that people will not wear them, forget to, or just remove them temporarily. And it will also the beg question, what triggers do you use to relax the measures? Can open, worms everywhere.

As we know from this crisis, every country has applied measures based on their own views, not always on the science. From social distancing, lockdowns, masks, tracking & tracing, just across Europe there have been a dozen or more approaches. So there's not one we can point to and say, "Oh that works!". Well maybe Sweden...

 

[Huntergreed]

Today at the Scottish press briefing, Nicola Sturgeon has stated that it is highly recommended to wear a face covering (not necessarily a mask) when in an enclosed area where social distancing is difficult. She emphasised that this is in addition to, not instead of, the current rules, and did not rule out that this would not be made mandatory and enforced should this be deemed necessary.

 

[Meerkat]

Today at the Scottish press briefing, Nicola Sturgeon has stated that it is highly recommended to wear a face covering (not necessarily a mask) when in an enclosed area where social distancing is difficult. She emphasised that this is in addition to, not instead of, the current rules, and did not rule out that this would not be made mandatory and enforced should this be deemed necessary.

If this comes south I can look forward to the glares from lockdown vigilantes...
Of course they better not say anything as having your mouth open must be a bigger risk than not wearing a mask......

 

[MarkyT]

Today at the Scottish press briefing, Nicola Sturgeon has stated that it is highly recommended to wear a face covering (not necessarily a mask) when in an enclosed area where social distancing is difficult. She emphasised that this is in addition to, not instead of, the current rules, and did not rule out that this would not be made mandatory and enforced should this be deemed necessary.

Food shops, public transport, not mandatory, under ongoing review, must be implemented in conjunction with other measures as far as possible. Sensible, proportionate measures in my opinion. Predictable rubbish from some English sources claiming Scottish only doing it to embarrass Westminster.

If this comes south I can look forward to the glares from lockdown vigilantes...
Of course they better not say anything as having your mouth open must be a bigger risk than not wearing a mask......

You can have your mouth open and talk behind a mask. That's the point!

 

[Bantamzen]

You can have your mouth open and talk behind a mask. That's the point!

Can this be proven scientifically in relation to this virus and home made masks?

 

[MarkyT]

Can this be proven scientifically in relation to this virus and home made masks?

I linked to a study in this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...with-no-compulsion.203732/page-2#post-4550945

 

[Meerkat]

Predictable rubbish from some English sources claiming Scottish only doing it to embarrass Westminster.

Rubbish? Highly likely Sturgeon wants to look more proactive - populist nonsense like mask wearing is perfect for it.

 

[Bantamzen]

I linked to a study in this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...with-no-compulsion.203732/page-2#post-4550945

This is not yet peer reviewed? Sorry, this isn't what is yet needed to make the case.

And while we are here, may I ask if you have any vested interest? You've been rather determined to make your case for making everyone wear masks, despite quite a lot of peer reviewed evidence that suggests that it is not really effective in this particular context. Is there a particular reason beyond your own personal preference? Personally I feel that if something like this is to be imposed, it should have a sound basis & should have an end strategy. Otherwise my suspicions that the current drive for masks is commercially driven.

 

[MarkyT]

This is not yet peer reviewed? Sorry, this isn't what is yet needed to make the case.

Hence perhaps the cautious measure in Scotland. Only certain scenarios. No compulsion.

And while we are here, may I ask if you have any vested interest? You've been rather determined to make your case for making everyone wear masks, despite quite a lot of peer reviewed evidence that suggests that it is not really effective in this particular context. Is there a particular reason beyond your own personal preference? Personally I feel that if something like this is to be imposed, it should have a sound basis & should have an end strategy. Otherwise my suspicions that the current drive for masks is commercially driven.

I have no vested interest, personally leave the house rarely and have not used public transport for over 6 weeks, but to me the notion of a 'prefitted handkerchief' over the mouth is 'common sense' from an engineering perspective in enclosed spaces like public transport, where safe social distancing can be difficult. Also, that East Asian cities have been able to control the virus so effectively, often without significant lockdown, CANNOT be solely down to testing and tracing, so cultural predisposition to wear masks backed up by recent requirements to do so MUST have had a role in limiting transmission, and that was what converted me into an evangelist, especially after seeing the campaign in the Czech Republic. If you don't like what I write, don't read me or argue, as you clearly are doing. If you think my opinions are a danger to public health, complain to the admins and get me banned if they agree. Homemade or cloth mask-wearing has no major commercial angle that I can see, and even if commercial masks were widely available as they are in East Asia, there are many suppliers and 'the market' will set up new production where it is profitable. It is low tech mass production that can be largely mechanised, nothing like complex hospital equipment such as ventilators, many of which might be saved if a sharp decline in new infections were achieved. The end strategy is to help reduce further spreading while a gradual loosening of lockdown takes place alongside other measures. The Scottish statement is quite clear that masks must be used in conjunction with other measures at the moment, not as a substitute. The formal evidence is admittedly weak as you suggest and that is acknowledged by Scotland. The risks of such low key advice is very low, and many people are already using mouth coverings already, particularly in larger cities where crowds are more likely. I think it might be seen as irresponsible to suggest that this informal mask-wearing is in itself expanding or prolonging transmission opportunities in public spaces, when experience elsewhere suggests that it may provide some minor protection for the wearers as well a more significant level for others around them if they should unexpectedly sneeze or cough.

Here's a recent CNN article about masks in Germany:

Germans face fines of up to $5,000 as wearing a face mask becomes mandatory | CNN

Public life changed considerably for most Germans on Monday as the wearing of masks became mandatory in many public spaces across the country.

edition.cnn.com

Germans face fines of up to $5,000 as wearing a face mask becomes mandatory
...
Potsdam, Germany (CNN)Public life changed considerably for most Germans on Monday as the wearing of masks became mandatory in many public spaces across the country.
In an interior design store on the main shopping street of Potsdam, just outside of Berlin, all the customers were sticking to the new regulations.
Store manager Carolin Hucke said the masks made both her and her patrons feel calmer. "I can tell that people are more at ease," Hucke said while wiping shopping baskets with disinfectant, and adding, "they keep their distance and are more sensitive to the situation, but they are also less stressed and just watch out for each other."

 

[Meerkat]

Also, that East Asian cities have been able to control the virus so effectively, often without significant lockdown, CANNOT be solely down to testing and tracing, so cultural predisposition to wear masks backed up by recent requirements to do so MUST have had a role in limiting transmission

which East Asian cities? And correlation isn’t not the same as causation - you have made a massive leap there!

but to me the notion of a 'prefitted handkerchief' over the mouth is 'common sense' from an engineering perspective

Common sense is often wrong. You are ignoring all the fiddling that masks require (particularly the makeshift ones) and the storage of virus by warm soggy masks.
Your German quote also backs up one of the fears - people seem more at ease. We don’t want people at ease, we want them concerned and making an effort!

 

[westv]

Hence perhaps the cautious measure in Scotland. Only certain scenarios. No compulsion.

It'll give the busybodies something else to do checking up on those that don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you don't like what I write, don't read me or argue, as you clearly are doing

Minor point of order, this is a discussion forum, and other than mods/admins nobody has a right to tell anyone whether they may or may not discuss something. If you don't want your point discussing, keep it to yourself. Otherwise we have every right to discuss it.

(Mods, obviously feel free to get rid of this as a forum tidy once he's read it )

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your German quote also backs up one of the fears - people seem more at ease. We don’t want people at ease, we want them concerned and making an effort!

Might masks actually serve as a reminder that times are different? I've occasionally forgotten and had to remind myself, and I'm exceptionally conscientious in many ways.

 

[Bantamzen]

Hence perhaps the cautious measure in Scotland. Only certain scenarios. No compulsion.

I have no vested interest, personally leave the house rarely and have not used public transport for over 6 weeks, but to me the notion of a 'prefitted handkerchief' over the mouth is 'common sense' from an engineering perspective in enclosed spaces like public transport, where safe social distancing can be difficult. Also, that East Asian cities have been able to control the virus so effectively, often without significant lockdown, CANNOT be solely down to testing and tracing, so cultural predisposition to wear masks backed up by recent requirements to do so MUST have had a role in limiting transmission, and that was what converted me into an evangelist, especially after seeing the campaign in the Czech Republic. If you don't like what I write, don't read me or argue, as you clearly are doing. If you think my opinions are a danger to public health, complain to the admins and get me banned if they agree. Homemade or cloth mask-wearing has no major commercial angle that I can see, and even if commercial masks were widely available as they are in East Asia, there are many suppliers and 'the market' will set up new production where it is profitable. It is low tech mass production that can be largely mechanised, nothing like complex hospital equipment such as ventilators, many of which might be saved if a sharp decline in new infections were achieved. The end strategy is to help reduce further spreading while a gradual loosening of lockdown measures takes place alongside other measures. The Scottish statement is quite clear that masks must be used in conjunction with other measures at the moment, not as a substitute. The formal evidence is admittedly weak as you suggest and that is acknowledged by Scotland. The risks of such low key advice is very low, and many people are already using mouth coverings already, particularly in larger cities where crowds are more likely. I think it might be seen as irresponsible to suggest that this informal mask-wearing is in itself expanding or prolonging transmission opportunities in public spaces, when experience elsewhere suggests that it may provide some minor protection for the wearers as well a more significant level for others around them if they should unexpectedly sneeze or cough.

Here's a recent CNN article about masks in Germany:

Germans face fines of up to $5,000 as wearing a face mask becomes mandatory | CNN

Public life changed considerably for most Germans on Monday as the wearing of masks became mandatory in many public spaces across the country.

edition.cnn.com

I don't think your arguments are a danger to public health, I do however question your reasoning. Other countries may have adopted the policy, but this doesn't make it the right one. You acknowledge the weakness in the argument, and the WHO still says they are not necessary for healthy people who are not displaying symptoms. And again, Asian countries have typically used masks in public only when they have had symptoms, not as a regular thing. For the most part all of the supposed risks of not wearing them when healthy can be easily mitigated, with the use of a tissue when you do cough or sneeze, and regular hand washing.

Also you don't actually indicate when you might be happy to see the use of masks no longer be a requirement, so what would trigger this? People aren't going to put up with it forever for a whole manner of reasons, including societal & safety reasons.

 

[MarkyT]

which East Asian cities? And correlation isn’t not the same as causation - you have made a massive leap there!

I suggested 'a role' not 'entirely due to'. Can you prove to me they have no effect whatsoever or are indeed a risk in themselves?

Common sense is often wrong. You are ignoring all the fiddling that masks require (particularly the makeshift ones) and the storage of virus by warm soggy masks.
Your German quote also backs up one of the fears - people seem more at ease. We don’t want people at ease, we want them concerned and making an effort!

I am as wary as you of supposed 'common sense'. Perhaps that's not the correct phrase and it's more my engineering understanding of where to put a filter in a system.
Keeping mouths covered IS making an effort. Germany's performance in general has been better than the UK, and they are already starting to reopen certain categories of businesses that have been closed to date.

 

[MarkyT]

I don't think your arguments are a danger to public health, I do however question your reasoning. Other countries may have adopted the policy, but this doesn't make it the right one. You acknowledge the weakness in the argument, and the WHO still says they are not necessary for healthy people who are not displaying symptoms. And again, Asian countries have typically used masks in public only when they have had symptoms, not as a regular thing. For the most part all of the supposed risks of not wearing them when healthy can be easily mitigated, with the use of a tissue when you do cough or sneeze, and regular hand washing.

Also you don't actually indicate when you might be happy to see the use of masks no longer be a requirement, so what would trigger this? People aren't going to put up with it forever for a whole manner of reasons, including societal & safety reasons.

WHO guidance on masks is now a little more nuanced:

Advice on the use of masks in the community, during home care and in healthcare settings in the context of the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak

Interim guidance

www.who.int

Advice on the use of masks in the context of COVID-19 Overview
This document provides advice on the use of masks in communities, during home care, and in health care settings in areas that have reported cases of COVID-19. It is intended for individuals in the community, public health and infection prevention and control (IPC) professionals, health care managers, health care workers (HCWs), and community health workers. This updated version includes a section on Advice to decision makers on the use of masks for healthy people in community settings.

A relevant quote from the linked .pdf

Type of Mask
WHO stresses that it is critical that medical masks and respirators be prioritized for health care workers.
The use of masks made of other materials (e.g., cotton fabric), also known as nonmedical masks, in the community setting has not been well evaluated. There is no current evidence to make a recommendation for or against their use in this setting. WHO is collaborating with research and development partners to better understand the effectiveness and efficiency of nonmedical masks. WHO is also strongly encouraging countries that issue recommendations for the use of masks in healthy people in the community to conduct research on this critical topic. WHO will update its guidance when new evidence becomes available.
Advice on the use of masks in the context of COVID-19: interim guidance

In the interim, decision makers may be moving ahead with advising the use of nonmedical masks. Where this is the case, the following features related to nonmedical masks should be taken into consideration:
• Numbers of layers of fabric/tissue
• Breathability of material used
• Water repellence/hydrophobic qualities
• Shape of mask
• Fit of mask

 

[baz962]

Might masks actually serve as a reminder that times are different? I've occasionally forgotten and had to remind myself, and I'm exceptionally conscientious in many ways.

Glad you posted this. I can't wear masks , gloves or hat's/ cap's much. I am conscious I am wearing them and for instance , it doesn't have to be cold for me to wear a beeny , it has to be super freezing. They make me sweaty and itchy and I'm forever moving , touching them and scratching. Once I remove them , I still feel like I'm wearing them for maybe around an hour , So I would have to get to work early and leave them off for around an hour or not wear them. Having the feeling and the itching for an hour while driving my train wouldn't be good at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Glad you posted this. I can't wear masks , gloves or hat's/ cap's much. I am conscious I am wearing them and for instance , it doesn't have to be cold for me to wear a beeny , it has to be super freezing. They make me sweaty and itchy and I'm forever moving , touching them and scratching. Once I remove them , I still feel like I'm wearing them for maybe around an hour , So I would have to get to work early and leave them off for around an hour or not wear them. Having the feeling and the itching for an hour while driving my train wouldn't be good at all.

As you will be alone in your cab, I can see no reason why a mask would be appropriate in that role, as someone in Government said a while ago (Gove?) a closed, locked door between you and any other people is a far better protection than any mask or social distancing. Possibly on the way there though.

 

[baz962]

As you will be alone in your cab, I can see no reason why a mask would be appropriate in that role. Possibly on the way there though.

That's my point though. If I wear one on the way there , then I need a good hour after getting to work and driving. And changing ends could be tricky.