Club55 - must I have return ticket on outward journey?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by trainophile, 18 Nov 2011.

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  1. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    I haven't been challenged on this, but something I've read on here has got me wondering.

    I travel between Hereford and Southport regularly, and tend to buy my Club55 ticket in advance to avoid queueing on the day of travel. I usually leave all my Southport to Hereford tickets up in Southport until I need to use them, and all my Hereford to Southport ones in Hereford.

    Just wondering if on an outward journey the ticket inspector could demand to see my return half, and what would happen if I didn't have it with me.

    Same question for Anytime Returns, although I don't tend to buy these, but would be interested to know the rules.

    On another matter, why is the nationalrail.co.uk website showing that ATW Advance tickets are available up to 10/11 Feb (weekday/Saturday) but none of these appear to have been loaded on the booking sites?
     
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  3. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    You definitely have to have the return portion with you when using the outward half of a two part ticket.

    You can't prove the return is unused if you don't have it with you. That's why 'two part return' is printed on them AIUI.

    If you are being checked and the return isn't being asked for then you are just being lucky.
     
  4. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    Whoops, thanks. Will change my ways.

    I've never, in all my frequent travels, known any ticket inspector ask me or anyone in hearing range for their return ticket portion on an outward journey. I'm surprised to learn that this sounds like it should be common practice?
     
  5. transportphoto

    transportphoto Established Member Quizmaster

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    Its not common practice, is more an if, not a when. However any authorised person has the right to demand you to produce the return portion on an out bound journey :smile:

    TP
     
  6. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    In the past when I was travelling up and back every week, I often had a stash of Advance tickets that I'd bought before Club55 promotions were announced, and that then overlapped.

    In such cases I have used an outward Club55 (making an additional trip to tickets already held) but returning on a previously bought Advance, thus leaving a "spare" return half Club55 ticket. If I then bought a further Club55 on a later date, presumably it was okay to use the first Club55 return half, so long as it was within the valid one month?

    Presumably there is no way of checking that you will be returning on the matching part of your outward ticket, so long as all tickets used are in date and you can produce a return ticket relating to the outward one you are travelling on? It makes sense to use the earliest expiring return ticket first.

    Sorry that is muddly, it's hard to explain.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Thanks, guess I was lucky then. I was booking a succession of Advance tickets for a weekly up-and-back trip when my mother was ill, and it got that I was carrying too many at one time in my ticket wallet, which got to the stage it wouldn't shut. It seemed sensible to leave the return ones at my return point. Now I realise I should have left them paired up, and only carried the current set!
     
  7. Lrd

    Lrd Established Member

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    If they were Advance fares then surely it wouldn't matter as they are both singles, not return.
     
  8. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    Sorry, I knew I was being confusing. I was using a combination of pre-bought Advance tickets and Club55 tickets, as I'd bought a load of Advance once then found out about the Club55 promotion so tried to juggle it so that I didn't waste too many Advance ones, while taking advantage of the Club55 deal.

    Sometimes my husband bought a Club55 and came up for a weekend, so he used my shorter-dated return half and I kept hold of his longer-dated one for future use.

    Probably all highly illegal but I can't see (a) the harm and (b) the traceability of doing this.
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Again, what you are doing is highly unlikely to be checked in normal circumstances, but the two halves of an out and back return will be linkable using the various numbers shown in the 'small print' on them - including codes showing the issuing ticket machine, and its location, and of course there's the time of printing shown as well...
     
  10. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    The return half of the ticket can't be linked to the outward half as the outward half has probably been retained by the barriers. Even if the reference numbers on the return half show that the corresponding outward half has been used, there is no way of telling by whom. I understand the law isn't so rigid as to prohibit a wife buying a ticket for her husband's use, or vice versa? If it is, I confess I've broken it many a time.
     
  11. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    That's right, but only when you are on return halves of your journey- I just thought I'd point out that you could come unstuck on outward journeys - in theory...
     
  12. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    The time when you are most likely to be asked to show the return half of a two part ticket is when you are using an Anytime return which is valid for 5 days outward and 1 month return, and you are travelling on day 2-5 on the outward half. This is to prevent people using them as a weekly season ticket.
     
  13. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    Oh I see. I never knew Anytime returns could be used outward (once only) for 1-5 days, thought it would be like Club55 and only valid for one day. You live and learn (especially where rail travel is concerned!).
     
  14. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Yes, this is an issue you won't encounter if your main journey is Hereford - Southport. There is no Anytime Return (SOR) Hereford - Southport. The reason is that Arriva Trains Wales set the fare for this flow and their approach to Fares Simplification in 2008 was to make the old Saver return (SVR) into the Off-Peak Return (abbreviation also SVR! - currently £57.30 for some 130 miles each way) and to place no time restrictions on its use (although they do prohibit break of outward journey - see Validity Code 8A).

    Other train companies took a different approach. Northern converted their old Saver returns (SVRs) into Anytime Returns (SORs), for example Workington - Southport, currently £48.80 for some 135 miles each way).

    Former InterCity operators tended to convert their old Saver returns (SVRs) into Super Off-Peak Returns (SSRs) and to impose increasingly onerous time restrictions on their use. For example, First Great Western currently charge £55 for Hereford - Slough, also 135 miles each way, but Validity Code 2Q prevents its use on weekday peak trains. It also has a £69 Hereford - Slough Off-Peak Return (SVR) with fewer restrictions (Validity Code GK), and an Anytime Return (SOR) at £163.

    It is to prevent fraud by re-use of the outward portion of these expensive Anytime Returns that the rule in NRCoC Condition 17 exists. A passenger is likely to be asked to show the unused return portion of one of these tickets if using the outward portion on a day other than the first day of its validity. Note that the return portion must match the outward portion, that is the ticket numbers must be the same.
     
    Last edited: 19 Nov 2011
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