Clwydian Railways - New open access operator between Wales & Marylebone

[Doomotron]

If you are going 'super premium' then you need a route which has high passenger numbers (only a minority will be willing to pay extra) to fill the train and a long enough journey (people aren't going to be as willing to pay a premium if the journey is only 1 hr). Even then Caledonian Sleeper (and less so the Night Riviera) and needs subsidy.

Exactly. Their are very few services in the UK that would justify that sort of service, and I doubt this is one of them. They'd best bet they have enough financial backing to subsidise the service until they have enough passengers to turn a profit, or they'll go on limping like W&S did until an eventual bankruptcy - probably with much less public sadness than Wrexham And Shropshire. For the sake of the potential investors, I hope that this plan is dismissed by the government or whoever makes the decisions nowadays.

 

[The Planner]

Exactly. Their are very few services in the UK that would justify that sort of service, and I doubt this is one of them. They'd best bet they have enough financial backing to subsidise the service until they have enough passengers to turn a profit, or they'll go on limping like W&S did until an eventual bankruptcy - probably with much less public sadness than Wrexham And Shropshire. For the sake of the potential investors, I hope that this plan is dismissed by the government or whoever makes the decisions nowadays.

I doubt there are investors....

 

[Doomotron]

I doubt there are investors....

Not surprising.

 

[cle]

Funny as I was speculating this just in the Chester thread. And one of the differentiators vs the WSMR service was actually getting to Chester itself - amazing if you could fit in the west-facing bay.

Plus a faster stopping pattern overall through the Midlands and Shropshire. Seems there are paths and some un/under-served markets en route - who knows. Maybe not this person, maybe not this stock (2 car units out of Marylebone and through BNS?!) - but this broad routing. Someone should get in there on Oxford north too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are going 'super premium' then you need a route which has high passenger numbers (only a minority will be willing to pay extra) to fill the train and a long enough journey (people aren't going to be as willing to pay a premium if the journey is only 1 hr). Even then Caledonian Sleeper (and less so the Night Riviera) and needs subsidy.

I have wondered if TfW should consider running hourly from Holyhead via Chiltern, providing a frequent direct service rather than a bitty if faster one. I don't think it would be viable as an open access operation, though.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Perhaps that's the hidden cunning moneymaker. Sell a shedload to enthusiasts of souvenirs for a train company that never has, and very possibly never will, turned a wheel in anger.....

See also Varamis Rail

 

[pdeaves]

I personally don't think this proposal will come to anything. Remember though that Wrexham & Shropshire were restricted in not being able to call in Birmingham; I believe that restriction in itself no longer applies (there may be no end of other reasons why such a call cannot be made, though) so, compared to W&S, this proposal may have a stronger footing.

 

[The Planner]

I have wondered if TfW should consider running hourly from Holyhead via Chiltern, providing a frequent direct service rather than a bitty if faster one. I don't think it would be viable as an open access operation, though.

They tried to extend the Aberystwyth services when WSMR got going. Paths were found for them. I recall people getting quite irate about it on here.

 

[SargeNpton]

... and that it took ages to get to London

They say that they will use the class 175. While I doubt fare abstraction will be too much of an issue I'm not sure if they will make much money.

Also, they have a gift shop. I don't know why people would buy branded stuff of any rail operator, let alone one which hasnt run a service yet.

The gift shop also now seems to have disappeared.

Has Mr Jasper put his crayons away?

 

[cle]

They tried to extend the Aberystwyth services when WSMR got going. Paths were found for them. I recall people getting quite irate about it on here.

Wasn't there a ERTMS issue on that?

I personally don't think this proposal will come to anything. Remember though that Wrexham & Shropshire were restricted in not being able to call in Birmingham; I believe that restriction in itself no longer applies (there may be no end of other reasons why such a call cannot be made, though) so, compared to W&S, this proposal may have a stronger footing.

WSMR weren't even even allowed to set down at Banbury for a while, and Wolverhampton was contentious also, let alone New St. They also stopped too much. There have been some improvements on thew Shrewsbury-Chester line since then too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They tried to extend the Aberystwyth services when WSMR got going. Paths were found for them. I recall people getting quite irate about it on here.

Largely because they had insufficient stock for their core operation plus would be wasting paths with 2 car units. If enough stock was ordered to run a decent long formation which could also offer capacity to Chiltern passengers, that'd be quite different.

I don't think I would oppose a six car 197 formation with First Class from Pwllheli and Aberystwyth running through to London on Chiltern.

 

[The Planner]

Largely because they had insufficient stock for their core operation plus would be wasting paths with 2 car units. If enough stock was ordered to run a decent long formation which could also offer capacity to Chiltern passengers, that'd be quite different.

Never going to happen regardless for the same reasons as above, unless it had some bizarre set down and pick up restrictions its just abstractive.

 

[43096]

Funny as I was speculating this just in the Chester thread. And one of the differentiators vs the WSMR service was actually getting to Chester itself - amazing if you could fit in the west-facing bay.

Plus a faster stopping pattern overall through the Midlands and Shropshire. Seems there are paths and some un/under-served markets en route - who knows. Maybe not this person, maybe not this stock (2 car units out of Marylebone and through BNS?!) - but this broad routing. Someone should get in there on Oxford north too.

Marylebone to Chester via Barnes. That’s an interesting route!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never going to happen regardless for the same reasons as above, unless it had some bizarre set down and pick up restrictions its just abstractive.

That's assuming OAO. If it was allowed to collaborate with Chiltern, even to run as a Chiltern service as far as Birmingham, concern goes away. I believe the main killer for WSMR was that Chiltern weren't allowed to subcontract part of their operation to an OAO, which seemed a bit silly provided it actually operated.

 

[The Planner]

That's assuming OAO. If it was allowed to collaborate with Chiltern, even to run as a Chiltern service as far as Birmingham, concern goes away. I believe the main killer for WSMR was that Chiltern weren't allowed to subcontract part of their operation to an OAO, which seemed a bit silly provided it actually operated.

TfW are highly unlikely to be even bat an eyelid at it. The WSMR/Chiltern issue was them breaking ORR rules, they were separate entities in their eyes.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Interesting if it is true.

(I did use Marylebone to Wrexham service, it was good, I liked the train it self and service on board. I was not too worried about the longer journey time as it avoided having to change at Birmingham etc.)

 

[pdeaves]

TfW are highly unlikely to be even bat an eyelid at it. The WSMR/Chiltern issue was them breaking ORR rules, they were separate entities in their eyes.

Yes, the issues were ultimately through not playing by the set-down rules. They should have agreed a change in the rules before hand. The rules may be good or bad, but when you play the game you have to follow the rules.

 

[anthony263]

Anyone got the leaflet/pdf for arrivas Aberystwyth to London Marylebone service?

 

[RobShipway]

They have got a Youtube channel which is https://www.youtube.com/user/Halifaxtownfan/videos

The Youtube link says Halifax Town fan and the cover photo for the Youtube Channel is of Class 170 unit 170207, even though they say that they will be using the class 175's once they come off lease.

I personally think that it is something that someone setup on the 1st April!

 

[The Planner]

Anyone got the leaflet/pdf for arrivas Aberystwyth to London Marylebone service?

Don't think it got any further than the paths being found.

 

[Bensonby]

Why would anyone want to spend around 4 hours on what is essentially a commuter train? The journey would be hideous.

And…..the website appears to have gone.

 

[realemil]

If the journey extended to Holyhead and / or timed with a TfW connection to Holyhead, blae & Llandudno, it wouldn’t be a bad idea I think, the demand could be there if ticket prices were low enough.

 

[Wolfie]

Why would anyone want to spend around 4 hours on what is essentially a commuter train? The journey would be hideous.

And…..the website appears to have gone.

Err... LNWR from London to Liverpool (admittedly there is currently a change)....

TPR 185s and formerly 350s.....

 

[craigybagel]

Not that I think for one second this service is every likely to get off the ground, but one issue I can see is that assuming by other people's comments the service is planned to run via Shrewsbury & Wrexham? With TfW planning on running half hourly along there it's really hard to see paths being available for anything extra.

They tried to extend the Aberystwyth services when WSMR got going. Paths were found for them. I recall people getting quite irate about it on here.

Largely because they had insufficient stock for their core operation plus would be wasting paths with 2 car units. If enough stock was ordered to run a decent long formation which could also offer capacity to Chiltern passengers, that'd be quite different.

I don't think I would oppose a six car 197 formation with First Class from Pwllheli and Aberystwyth running through to London on Chiltern.

Don't think it got any further than the paths being found.

ISTR one of the issues was a fear of the chaos caused if a 158 failed on the Chiltern line - given it would be a very long way away from a compatible unit that could rescue it. It did get quite far along in the planning process though I believe - some drivers at Shrewsbury were told they were recruited to help cover that planned service.

 

[The Planner]

Not that I think for one second this service is every likely to get off the ground, but one issue I can see is that assuming by other people's comments the service is planned to run via Shrewsbury & Wrexham? With TfW planning on running half hourly along there it's really hard to see paths being available for anything extra.





ISTR one of the issues was a fear of the chaos caused if a 158 failed on the Chiltern line - given it would be a very long way away from a compatible unit that could rescue it. It did get quite far along in the planning process though I believe - some drivers at Shrewsbury were told they were recruited to help cover that planned service.

Travelling fitter I believe?

 

[LesF]

Would make more sense for the existing Aberystwyth to International service to be extended to Marylebone, as Arriva proposed when the WS&MR was running, but they were refused. WS&M had no chance with Virgin's monopoly rules preventing them from stopping at Virgin stations. Those rules have gone.

 

[tomuk]

Not that I think for one second this service is every likely to get off the ground, but one issue I can see is that assuming by other people's comments the service is planned to run via Shrewsbury & Wrexham? With TfW planning on running half hourly along there it's really hard to see paths being available for anything extra.





ISTR one of the issues was a fear of the chaos caused if a 158 failed on the Chiltern line - given it would be a very long way away from a compatible unit that could rescue it. It did get quite far along in the planning process though I believe - some drivers at Shrewsbury were told they were recruited to help cover that planned service.

Unable to rescue for the want of one coupler pin in the wrong place, oh the ignominy.

I assume all of this was pre the buyout of Chiltern by Arriva? I seem to recall pre WMSR there was at least one Chiltern 168? football special to Shrewsbury.

 

[Energy]

ISTR one of the issues was a fear of the chaos caused if a 158 failed on the Chiltern line - given it would be a very long way away from a compatible unit that could rescue it. It did get quite far along in the planning process though I believe - some drivers at Shrewsbury were told they were recruited to help cover that planned service.

Presumably some of the sprinters and turbostars in the West Midlands could come shift it?

 

[The Planner]

Would make more sense for the existing Aberystwyth to International service to be extended to Marylebone, as Arriva proposed when the WS&MR was running, but they were refused. WS&M had no chance with Virgin's monopoly rules preventing them from stopping at Virgin stations. Those rules have gone.

DfTs monopoly rules, Virgin had to object.

 

[craigybagel]

Travelling fitter I believe?

Not sure of the exact details but it's certainly plausible.

Unable to rescue for the want of one coupler pin in the wrong place, oh the ignominy.

Indeed. One of the many decisions by BR that have left something of a damaging legacy.

Presumably some of the sprinters and turbostars in the West Midlands could come shift it?

It's a long way from Leamington to Marylebone.