Coal Supply/Cost Issues

[EbbwJunction1]

You might possibly be thinking of a post made by the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Railway which has appeared this week?

Cheers

Ben

Yes, It might well be that, thanks.

 

[colchesterken]

I remember when they moved the ECML to by pass the new mine, we were told there was coal for decades of use
I looked it up it was 1980, could they reopen it to serve essential equipment, i e railways fairgrounds etc

 

[MattRat]

I remember when they moved the ECML to by pass the new mine, we were told there was coal for decades of use
I looked it up it was 1980, could they reopen it to serve essential equipment, i e railways fairgrounds etc

Depends on the quality. Better to make sure the coal is high quality so it produces less fumes.

 

[lyndhurst25]

In the 2010s there was a project, New Crofton Co-op Colliery, to open a new drift mine next to the ECML near Wakefield. I recall that they got planning permission, some funding and some early work was done on the site, but the project seems to have since stalled. They were planning on mining around 200,000 tonnes per year, with 15% going to domestic heating and heritage steam use, and 85% to power stations. I imagine that it was the closure of the coal fired power stations that made it uneconomic to proceed. UK heritage railways use around 30,000 tonnes of coal per year; would a mine built just to supply that market be viable, I wonder?

 

[Dai Corner]

Despite becoming a political football, a mine in South Wales is set to extract millions of tons in the coming years.

Coal: Aberpergwm colliery gets OK to mine 40 million tonnes

Green MP Caroline Lucas says the decision is a "retrograde and damaging step".

www.bbc.co.uk

A Green Party MP has said it is "shameful" that a colliery in south Wales has been given permission to mine a further 40 million tonnes of coal.
Caroline Lucas said fossil fuels must be left in the ground.
The UK government, which oversees the Coal Authority which is responsible for licensing mines, said it had greatly reduced the country's reliance on coal.
Energybuild said most of its coal was not burned for energy, but used in processes including water purification.
Welsh ministers wanted the UK government to cancel the licence for Aberpergwm mine, near Glynneath in Neath Port Talbot.
But it said on Wednesday evening it was committed to working with the company on business models that were sustainable.
The colliery is the only producer of high-grade anthracite in Western Europe and supplies nearby Tata Steel plant in Port Talbot.

I don't know whether anthracite is good for steam or not.

 

[mike57]

UK heritage railways use around 30,000 tonnes of coal per year; would a mine built just to supply that market be viable, I wonder?

At £400 a tonne that would equate to an income of £12M a year, it sounds a lot, but I suspect that you would need a larger operation for it to be self supporting. I could imagine that a lot of the fixed costs would be almost the same if you mined 30,000t or ten times that.

Opencast would be easier to operate than deep level one assumes, but opencast has a bad reputation, and I think there would be NIMBYs whereever you tried to operate.

Sad as it is I think importing is the only viable route. Maybe a 'not-for profit' could be established to import bulk coal and carry a stockpile for heritage applications, not just railways. It would have to be funded, maybe shares could be sold, in 1t per year increments, which then allows you to purchase the tonnage per 12 months, everyone would have to contribute this way, but an outlay now could establish a secure supply and reasonable cost into the future. Even small users such as private traction and similar engines could be encouraged to join. Maybe the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (who ultimately are responsible for operations like the National Railway Museum) could be encouraged to take the lead and try and bring everyone who uses coal for heritage purposes together.

 

[a340egkk]

Despite becoming a political football, a mine in South Wales is set to extract millions of tons in the coming years.

Coal: Aberpergwm colliery gets OK to mine 40 million tonnes

Green MP Caroline Lucas says the decision is a "retrograde and damaging step".

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't know whether anthracite is good for steam or not.

Unfortunately not

 

[MattRat]

Despite becoming a political football, a mine in South Wales is set to extract millions of tons in the coming years.

Coal: Aberpergwm colliery gets OK to mine 40 million tonnes

Green MP Caroline Lucas says the decision is a "retrograde and damaging step".

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't know whether anthracite is good for steam or not.

Even if it works, I imagine it costs more due to being a purer grade of coal.

 

[a340egkk]

It has too high an ash content, and too low a volatility to be useful in steam engines.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It has too high an ash content, and too low a volatility to be useful in steam engines.

Anthracite - great for space heating , malting and so on - not good for UK steam locomotives (though used in the 19thC in the USA - special wide fireboxes required) - as mentioned before.

 

[Greybeard33]

In this Talyllyn Railway YouTube video, Chris Price, General Manager of the NYMR, discusses the issues and options now that the war has ruled out Russian coal imports.

 

[36270k]

West Virginia coal is still ready available and was used by the steam locomotives of the Norfolk and Western

 

[MattRat]

West Virginia coal is still ready available and was used by the steam locomotives of the Norfolk and Western

For how long? This is the same country who stopped a new pipeline around a year before the war started, which looking back was a little short sighted. I wouldn't be surprised if more short sightedness follows.

 

[Mike Machin]

I’m a member of The History Museum of West Virginia, and the feeling within the State is pretty much one of resignation that the coal industry is in its final phase.

In fact, I think that coal will be virtually unobtainable within the next few years, except for the fines and dust used in a few heavy industries. I think we will have to face the fact that relying on coal for heritage railway use by the end of this decade is a complete non-starter - it simply won’t be available.

I feel all of our heritage railways need urgently to grasp this fact, and actively start now to look into the technical feasibility of alternative fuel, and plan to convert all of the locomotives they wish to continue using in traffic to burn alternative sources of power.

People are still saying ‘we can get coal from Poland, or Australia‘ or wherever - yes we can now. But it’s very unlikely that these sources of supply will be around in ten years time.

We are steaming in ‘the last chance saloon’, and if we bury our heads and hope that something will come along it will be too late.

 

[MattRat]

I’m a member of The History Museum of West Virginia, and the feeling within the State is pretty much one of resignation that the coal industry is in its final phase.

In fact, I think that coal will be virtually unobtainable within the next few years, except for the fines and dust used in a few heavy industries. I think we will have to face the fact that relying on coal for heritage railway use by the end of this decade is a complete non-starter - it simply won’t be available.

I feel all of our heritage railways need urgently to grasp this fact, and actively start now to look into the technical feasibility of alternative fuel, and plan to convert all of the locomotives they wish to continue using in traffic to burn alternative sources of power.

People are still saying ‘we can get coal from Poland, or Australia‘ or wherever - yes we can now. But it’s very unlikely that these sources of supply will be around in ten years time.

We are steaming in ‘the last chance saloon’, and if we bury our heads and hope that something will come along it will be too late.

Pretty certain there's plenty of coal in second and third world countries who won't be stopping anytime soon. And it's not like our politicians will actually grow true morales and stick to helping the climate. It's all for show and actually commiting to solving the problem will never actually happen.

 

[Roast Veg]

The National Coal Mining Museum between Huddersfield and Wakefield is officially classed as a working pit, insofar as the inspections and safety regime is concerned. I have no idea how much coal is left in the seams there, but my gut instinct is that combining even small-scale extraction with the museum aspect in the same pit would be a Health & Safety nightmare.

Like anything else, you develop a method statement, do the RAMs and operate the business within those parameters.

There's no way the NCM would ever reopen. The museum has taken up far too much of the site, and you wouldn't be able to get the coal out without a huge new-build facility on the surface.

Despite becoming a political football, a mine in South Wales is set to extract millions of tons in the coming years.

Coal: Aberpergwm colliery gets OK to mine 40 million tonnes

Green MP Caroline Lucas says the decision is a "retrograde and damaging step".

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't know whether anthracite is good for steam or not.

Anthracite is a key ingredient in the "eCoal" product, which is likely to be the best long term option if it can be scaled up and the cost brought down.

 

[Rescars]

Anthracite - great for space heating , malting and so on - not good for UK steam locomotives (though used in the 19thC in the USA - special wide fireboxes required) - as mentioned before.

Proud history of use as the fuel for stoves in kitchen cars before the dash to propane gas.

 

[waynenm1]

Anthracite - great for space heating , malting and so on - not good for UK steam locomotives (though used in the 19thC in the USA - special wide fireboxes required) - as mentioned before.

The Lackawanna RR used anthracite in its locos up to dieselization AFAIR and was known as the route of anthracite. Needless to say most of it came from mines owned by the railroad and was essentially a waste product. But it had the advantage that it burned very hot and cleanly with essentially no smoke, cinders, or ash. Yes, wide, shallow fireboxes were required. Anthracite is still mined to some extent in the US for specialty purposes and the reserves in the state of Pennsylvania are enormous. Last I checked it was priced around three times that of bituminous coal. wf.

 

[Taunton]

The Lackawanna RR used anthracite in its locos up to dieselization AFAIR and was known as the route of anthracite. Needless to say most of it came from mines owned by the railroad and was essentially a waste product. But it had the advantage that it burned very hot and cleanly with essentially no smoke, cinders, or ash. Yes, wide, shallow fireboxes were required.

The Lackawanna built wide firebox locos (some, not all of their fleet), not because it was necessary for anthracite, but because they used the waste product coal, slack etc, finely grained, that was otherwise being dumped. The "proper" anthracite was being sold on the commercial market. Ownership of the railway was principally in the hands of the mining companies.

When 6000 King George V visited the Baltimore & Ohio Railway in 1927, who had the same approach and ran through the same coalfields, they just used adequately screened coal, anthracite, for it. Seemed to run fine, and no smoke.

 

[waynenm1]

The Lackawanna built wide firebox locos (some, not all of their fleet), not because it was necessary for anthracite, but because they used the waste product coal, slack etc, finely grained, that was otherwise being dumped. The "proper" anthracite was being sold on the commercial market. Ownership of the railway was principally in the hands of the mining companies.

When 6000 King George V visited the Baltimore & Ohio Railway in 1927, who had the same approach and ran through the same coalfields, they just used adequately screened coal, anthracite, for it. Seemed to run fine, and no smoke.

Yes, they used the culm, the waste anthracite as it was called there (it had other names elsewhere) in the fireboxes. Anthracite was never a big market compared to bituminous coal despite the huge reserves in Pennsylvania.

The Lackawanna built wide firebox locos (some, not all of their fleet), not because it was necessary for anthracite, but because they used the waste product coal, slack etc, finely grained, that was otherwise being dumped. The "proper" anthracite was being sold on the commercial market. Ownership of the railway was principally in the hands of the mining companies.

When 6000 King George V visited the Baltimore & Ohio Railway in 1927, who had the same approach and ran through the same coalfields, they just used adequately screened coal, anthracite, for it. Seemed to run fine, and no smoke.

The D&LW charter was to buld a railroad, but also allowed it to mine and sell coal. Ownerhsip of the D&LWRR was essentially the same as that of the D&LW Coal Co. A familiar tale.......

 

[alexl92]

I understand Australia still mines coal. Is it more expensive from there than it is from Kazakhstan or Columbia?

I emailed the HRA to ask about this. The reply was simply that it is an option being explored. I imagine that transporting it double the distance will have an impact on cost though.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I emailed the HRA to ask about this. The reply was simply that it is an option being explored. I imagine that transporting it double the distance will have an impact on cost though.

Plenty of coal still being mined. Mozambique has substantial rail infrastructure to export the stuff, as do some South American countries, Colombia was one.

 

[Roast Veg]

Plenty of coal still being mined. Mozambique has substantial rail infrastructure to export the stuff, as do some South American countries, Colombia was one.

Mining coal, unfortunately, is not the same as mining steam coal and extracting it from the remainder.

 

[geoffk]

We need to consider the possibility of heritage railways being targeted by Extinction Rebellion and other like-minded groups, even though, according to the HRA, heritage steam operations account for only 0.023% of all UK carbon emissions.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

We need to consider the possibility of heritage railways being targeted by Extinction Rebellion and other like-minded groups, even though, according to the HRA, heritage steam operations account for only 0.023% of all UK carbon emissions.

If they do so, hopefully they will turn up late on Sunday night and irreversibly glue/tie/padlock themselves to the track, not knowing that the next train is not until Saturday.

 

[Roast Veg]

If they do so, hopefully they will turn up late on Sunday night and irreversibly glue/tie/padlock themselves to the track, not knowing that the next train is not until Saturday.

Plenty of weekday running for schools/works etc on preserved railways.

 

[Speed43125]

We need to consider the possibility of heritage railways being targeted by Extinction Rebellion and other like-minded groups, even though, according to the HRA, heritage steam operations account for only 0.023% of all UK carbon emissions.

OK. I've heard some of this kind of waffle before, and I assure you, XR will not see the Wensleydale the same way as they see Exxon Mobile say. Especially if you note that that similar competitors that have made some effort to reduce their climate footprint, such as Shell, have have not been the centre of such protested of late - and their operations are obviously far more damaging than running a handful of trains on a handful of days of the year.

Compare the -already somewhat sour- optics of blockading a fuel depot being run by a multinational highly profitable oil company, to a private volunteer run heritage outfit. They are people and even their most hardcore members are probably more similar to you than you'd imagine.

No one is going to specifically target a sector that produces a fortieth of a percent of UK emissions.

 

[Mike Machin]

I sincerely hope Extinction Rebellion don’t focus their attentions on heritage railways, but I would never say that this wouldn’t be likely at some stage.
I specifically asked a Green Party election candidate about their attitude to steam railways, and they felt that a very limited amount of operation should be permitted for educational reasons, but generally, as they were a non-necessary source of pollution, they should be discouraged in favour of other interpretive non-polluting attractions.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I sincerely hope Extinction Rebellion don’t focus their attentions on heritage railways, but I would never say that this wouldn’t be likely at some stage.
I specifically asked a Green Party election candidate about their attitude to steam railways, and they felt that a very limited amount of operation should be permitted for educational reasons, but generally, as they were a non-necessary source of pollution, they should be discouraged in favour of other interpretive non-polluting attractions.

Which gives you a very good reason why you should never vote for the hair-shirt and sandal wearing miserabilists. Taking us back to a subsistence based economy where you grow what you need and not one grain more, except to barter.

 

[Calthrop]

Plenty of coal still being mined. Mozambique has substantial rail infrastructure to export the stuff, as do some South American countries, Colombia was one.

I gather that, sadly: the great majority of Colombia's one-time rather magnificent nation-wide rail system (all on the 3ft. gauge) is now minimally used / moribund / outright abandoned. The only part of it busily and efficiently in use nowadays, is for coal traffic -- the 200 km-odd northward from a prominent mining area, to shipping ports on the Caribbean.